[002]
Danster18
Current Version
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In response to your thoughts on what makes a Dragon, yeah i suppose i am kind of selling the dragon status short, and its not like the film itself makes him out to be just a scary Mook after she reveals herself. However, considering that she claims to love him enough (in some way) to care about his feelings and welfare, (she even adjusts the mask) and that he was excommunicated from the League by Ras himself, i dont get why she would be mad enough to distance herself from her father for this act, and yet when her father dies, she starts a master plan that would end in the death of the man who saved her from being raped and killed as a child? If she was the sole orchestrator of every event that would end in Gothams destruction as well as her own, couldnt she leave her childhood protector out of the blast radius. Why rope him into something that would end in his death if she loved him so much? He wasnt even part of the League without her hypothetical say so. Yes i know you could argue that she needed him to \
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In response to your thoughts on what makes a Dragon, yeah i suppose i am kind of selling the dragon status short, and its not like the film itself makes him out to be just a scary Mook after she reveals herself.
However, considering that she claims to love him enough (in some way) to care about his feelings and welfare, (she even adjusts the mask) and that he was excommunicated from the League by Ras himself, i dont get why she would be mad enough to distance herself from her father for this act, and yet when her father dies, she starts a master plan that would end in the death of the man who saved her from being raped and killed as a child.
If she was the sole orchestrator of every event that would end in Gothams destruction as well as her own, couldnt she leave her childhood protector out of the blast radius? Why rope him into something that would end in his death if she loved him so much? He wasnt even part of the League without her hypothetical say so. If he was intent on leaving the city, (which I suppose you could argue he could have, with his underground entrance into the city) wouldn\\\'t the fact that the plan ending in his survival and her death exclude him from Dragon status if he is the Leader of the League of Shadows? It would certainly ruin the argument that he is acting as her secret protector for the whole movie. Either argument wouldn\\\'t make him the Dragon at all.
Yes i know you could argue that she needed him to \\\"break\\\" Batman and send him away, but couldnt she send hordes of league members to jump Batman by surprise and break his spine themselves? If Bane is solely a dragon to everything Talia says alone, why get him involved? If you made the argument that he is just THAT loyal to her every plan, what would his stake be in her vengeance plot if he was too \\\"radical\\\" for Ras\\\'s plan, and excommunicated?
We have established that Bane is not Ras\\\'s child, and he owes getting out of the prison more to Talias affection for him than Ras\\\'s vision. It just seems like Bane is every bit the collaborator in the \\\"plan\\\" for Gotham. If Talia were in charge of everything behind it, she would have left out the man she genuinely loves if the plan ended with everyone involved exploding...
...especially since Alfred and Talia both confirm that Ras actually grew to detest Bane and personally threw him out of the league while he was the League mastermind.
My argument for Bane being a co big bad is based on Nolans insistance that Bane is meant to be a \\\"brilliant tactician character\\\" in this film, and the idea his actions are not planned by him kind of undermine this. Im not saying Talia is stupid, a dragon, or has no say in the plan. I just think that Nolan makes it clear that Bane derives his own personal pleasure from upending society \\\"his way\\\" so that he has power over the \\\"false hope\\\" society gives to the oppressed, and that he appreciates the irony of promising them salavation in spite of knowing the city will die.
It just happens that his end game fulfills Talias wish to fulfill her fathers dream AND get revenge on Batman. My train of thought is, they BOTH want to get revenge on Batman. Talia wants to avenge her father, and Bane wants to prove that HE was the better successor for Ras, as Ras had excommunicated him and chosen Bruce instead to carry out justice. With Ras gone, it would make sense for Bane to take control of the league.
It would give him the power to destroy Gotham in a more sadistic way influenced by the life he lived full of \\\"false hope\\\" in the Pit, while Talia wouldnt object because his end game involves giving her the trigger to personally fulfill her fathers wishes. And they both get their wish to sadistically break Batman. And Talia would be fulfilling the wishes of her childhood savior.
I just think that they are more of a Big Bad Diumverate in this sense. I think they can both want the same thing. Its just that they have different reasons for doing so and work together to accomplish it. Im sorry if im rambling but its cool to talk stuff like this out with somebody, so i can get other opinions in case im over thinking it.
However, considering that she claims to love him enough (in some way) to care about his feelings and welfare, (she even adjusts the mask) and that he was excommunicated from the League by Ras himself, i dont get why she would be mad enough to distance herself from her father for this act, and yet when her father dies, she starts a master plan that would end in the death of the man who saved her from being raped and killed as a child.
If she was the sole orchestrator of every event that would end in Gothams destruction as well as her own, couldnt she leave her childhood protector out of the blast radius? Why rope him into something that would end in his death if she loved him so much? He wasnt even part of the League without her hypothetical say so. If he was intent on leaving the city, (which I suppose you could argue he could have, with his underground entrance into the city) wouldn\\\'t the fact that the plan ending in his survival and her death exclude him from Dragon status if he is the Leader of the League of Shadows? It would certainly ruin the argument that he is acting as her secret protector for the whole movie. Either argument wouldn\\\'t make him the Dragon at all.
Yes i know you could argue that she needed him to \\\"break\\\" Batman and send him away, but couldnt she send hordes of league members to jump Batman by surprise and break his spine themselves? If Bane is solely a dragon to everything Talia says alone, why get him involved? If you made the argument that he is just THAT loyal to her every plan, what would his stake be in her vengeance plot if he was too \\\"radical\\\" for Ras\\\'s plan, and excommunicated?
We have established that Bane is not Ras\\\'s child, and he owes getting out of the prison more to Talias affection for him than Ras\\\'s vision. It just seems like Bane is every bit the collaborator in the \\\"plan\\\" for Gotham. If Talia were in charge of everything behind it, she would have left out the man she genuinely loves if the plan ended with everyone involved exploding...
...especially since Alfred and Talia both confirm that Ras actually grew to detest Bane and personally threw him out of the league while he was the League mastermind.
My argument for Bane being a co big bad is based on Nolans insistance that Bane is meant to be a \\\"brilliant tactician character\\\" in this film, and the idea his actions are not planned by him kind of undermine this. Im not saying Talia is stupid, a dragon, or has no say in the plan. I just think that Nolan makes it clear that Bane derives his own personal pleasure from upending society \\\"his way\\\" so that he has power over the \\\"false hope\\\" society gives to the oppressed, and that he appreciates the irony of promising them salavation in spite of knowing the city will die.
It just happens that his end game fulfills Talias wish to fulfill her fathers dream AND get revenge on Batman. My train of thought is, they BOTH want to get revenge on Batman. Talia wants to avenge her father, and Bane wants to prove that HE was the better successor for Ras, as Ras had excommunicated him and chosen Bruce instead to carry out justice. With Ras gone, it would make sense for Bane to take control of the league.
It would give him the power to destroy Gotham in a more sadistic way influenced by the life he lived full of \\\"false hope\\\" in the Pit, while Talia wouldnt object because his end game involves giving her the trigger to personally fulfill her fathers wishes. And they both get their wish to sadistically break Batman. And Talia would be fulfilling the wishes of her childhood savior.
I just think that they are more of a Big Bad Diumverate in this sense. I think they can both want the same thing. Its just that they have different reasons for doing so and work together to accomplish it. Im sorry if im rambling but its cool to talk stuff like this out with somebody, so i can get other opinions in case im over thinking it.
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Also took out some other cases of AccuracyAttacks:
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