[002]
berr
Current Version
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
The following RealLife examples were cut as \
to:
The following RealLife examples were cut as \\\"natter\\\" but they aren\\\'t. In fact, it seems like good stuff -- it\\\'s all relation of real-life metaphysical theories. Should we restore or create a JustBugsMe page for this?
* One of the arguments for intelligent design is that nothing can spontaneously come into existence, therefore there [[YouFailLogicForever must be]] a creator. However, this leads to [[FridgeLogic the counterargument]] that, if something or someone \\\'\\\'must\\\'\\\' have created the universe, then something or someone must have created the \\\'\\\'creator\\\'\\\', leading to an infinite line of creators. Also compare the \\\"Turtles All The Way Down\\\" argument.
** That argument is actually OlderThanFeudalism. Aristotle uses that argument against Plato\\\'s [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_forms Theory of Forms]]
** According to most Mormon sources, \\\'God the Father\\\' himself was once (like a) human, and lived on a planet with his own higher God to look up to. It\\\'s kind of implied that this keeps going up the ranks, and outright stated that in the afterlife, you too can become a god and make your own world, full of people. Try to guess what happens to them in the afterlife.
** The argument, also known as the \\\"creatio ex nihilo\\\" Argument, is rather stated that everything that has begun to exist must have been created. At the end of the line, therefore, for the argument to work, is the Ur-Creator, who is \\\'Himself\\\' not-created, since \\\'He\\\' has somehow * always* existed, even before the beginning of time. This is a definitional issue, and the standard definition used by most proponents of this argument. In any event, in real-world situations the only people who do NOT use this argument are steady-staters; whether you believe in the Big Bang, Quantum Handwaving, or [[AWizardDidIt God Made It]], * something* kick-started the universe. And logically, that something must predate the universe.
*** This is the main reason why a lot of theoretical physicists these days are leaning on the circular universe explanation, or a variation thereof that doesn\\\'t require a \\\"beginning\\\" or an \\\"end\\\". The problem is that their calculations have so many interpretations that no single theory has been able to prevail over the others, meaning that that the rest of us still have to read about a Big Bang as \\\'\\\'the\\\'\\\' start of the Universe in our high-school textbooks, because these non-scientist types just can\\\'t deal with uncertainity.
**** Realistically speaking, most scientist types have trouble dealing with it as well. The human brain really just isn\\\'t equipped to deal with concepts like \\\"infinity\\\" and \\\"eternity\\\" on any level beyond the symbolic.
***** This troper thinks its simple, nothing exist including laws saying nothing is nothing, the instability creates realities that exist nowhere and don\\\'t really \\\"exist\\\".
*** Quantum physics imply that nothingness is in itself an illusion - there is no such thing as a true void. Hence, existence is always constant, and the question why something exists is misleading, since it would be more incredible for \\\"nothing\\\" to exist anywhere.
* One of the arguments for intelligent design is that nothing can spontaneously come into existence, therefore there [[YouFailLogicForever must be]] a creator. However, this leads to [[FridgeLogic the counterargument]] that, if something or someone \\\'\\\'must\\\'\\\' have created the universe, then something or someone must have created the \\\'\\\'creator\\\'\\\', leading to an infinite line of creators. Also compare the \\\"Turtles All The Way Down\\\" argument.
** That argument is actually OlderThanFeudalism. Aristotle uses that argument against Plato\\\'s [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_forms Theory of Forms]]
** According to most Mormon sources, \\\'God the Father\\\' himself was once (like a) human, and lived on a planet with his own higher God to look up to. It\\\'s kind of implied that this keeps going up the ranks, and outright stated that in the afterlife, you too can become a god and make your own world, full of people. Try to guess what happens to them in the afterlife.
** The argument, also known as the \\\"creatio ex nihilo\\\" Argument, is rather stated that everything that has begun to exist must have been created. At the end of the line, therefore, for the argument to work, is the Ur-Creator, who is \\\'Himself\\\' not-created, since \\\'He\\\' has somehow * always* existed, even before the beginning of time. This is a definitional issue, and the standard definition used by most proponents of this argument. In any event, in real-world situations the only people who do NOT use this argument are steady-staters; whether you believe in the Big Bang, Quantum Handwaving, or [[AWizardDidIt God Made It]], * something* kick-started the universe. And logically, that something must predate the universe.
*** This is the main reason why a lot of theoretical physicists these days are leaning on the circular universe explanation, or a variation thereof that doesn\\\'t require a \\\"beginning\\\" or an \\\"end\\\". The problem is that their calculations have so many interpretations that no single theory has been able to prevail over the others, meaning that that the rest of us still have to read about a Big Bang as \\\'\\\'the\\\'\\\' start of the Universe in our high-school textbooks, because these non-scientist types just can\\\'t deal with uncertainity.
**** Realistically speaking, most scientist types have trouble dealing with it as well. The human brain really just isn\\\'t equipped to deal with concepts like \\\"infinity\\\" and \\\"eternity\\\" on any level beyond the symbolic.
***** This troper thinks its simple, nothing exist including laws saying nothing is nothing, the instability creates realities that exist nowhere and don\\\'t really \\\"exist\\\".
*** Quantum physics imply that nothingness is in itself an illusion - there is no such thing as a true void. Hence, existence is always constant, and the question why something exists is misleading, since it would be more incredible for \\\"nothing\\\" to exist anywhere.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
The following RealLife examples were cut as \
to:
The following RealLife examples were cut as \\\"natter\\\" but they aren\\\'t. In fact, it seems like good stuff. Should we restore or create a JustBugsMe page for this?
* One of the arguments for intelligent design is that nothing can spontaneously come into existence, therefore there [[YouFailLogicForever must be]] a creator. However, this leads to [[FridgeLogic the counterargument]] that, if something or someone \\\'\\\'must\\\'\\\' have created the universe, then something or someone must have created the \\\'\\\'creator\\\'\\\', leading to an infinite line of creators. Also compare the \\\"Turtles All The Way Down\\\" argument.
** That argument is actually OlderThanFeudalism. Aristotle uses that argument against Plato\\\'s [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_forms Theory of Forms]]
** According to most Mormon sources, \\\'God the Father\\\' himself was once (like a) human, and lived on a planet with his own higher God to look up to. It\\\'s kind of implied that this keeps going up the ranks, and outright stated that in the afterlife, you too can become a god and make your own world, full of people. Try to guess what happens to them in the afterlife.
** The argument, also known as the \\\"creatio ex nihilo\\\" Argument, is rather stated that everything that has begun to exist must have been created. At the end of the line, therefore, for the argument to work, is the Ur-Creator, who is \\\'Himself\\\' not-created, since \\\'He\\\' has somehow * always* existed, even before the beginning of time. This is a definitional issue, and the standard definition used by most proponents of this argument. In any event, in real-world situations the only people who do NOT use this argument are steady-staters; whether you believe in the Big Bang, Quantum Handwaving, or [[AWizardDidIt God Made It]], * something* kick-started the universe. And logically, that something must predate the universe.
*** This is the main reason why a lot of theoretical physicists these days are leaning on the circular universe explanation, or a variation thereof that doesn\\\'t require a \\\"beginning\\\" or an \\\"end\\\". The problem is that their calculations have so many interpretations that no single theory has been able to prevail over the others, meaning that that the rest of us still have to read about a Big Bang as \\\'\\\'the\\\'\\\' start of the Universe in our high-school textbooks, because these non-scientist types just can\\\'t deal with uncertainity.
**** Realistically speaking, most scientist types have trouble dealing with it as well. The human brain really just isn\\\'t equipped to deal with concepts like \\\"infinity\\\" and \\\"eternity\\\" on any level beyond the symbolic.
***** This troper thinks its simple, nothing exist including laws saying nothing is nothing, the instability creates realities that exist nowhere and don\\\'t really \\\"exist\\\".
*** Quantum physics imply that nothingness is in itself an illusion - there is no such thing as a true void. Hence, existence is always constant, and the question why something exists is misleading, since it would be more incredible for \\\"nothing\\\" to exist anywhere.
* One of the arguments for intelligent design is that nothing can spontaneously come into existence, therefore there [[YouFailLogicForever must be]] a creator. However, this leads to [[FridgeLogic the counterargument]] that, if something or someone \\\'\\\'must\\\'\\\' have created the universe, then something or someone must have created the \\\'\\\'creator\\\'\\\', leading to an infinite line of creators. Also compare the \\\"Turtles All The Way Down\\\" argument.
** That argument is actually OlderThanFeudalism. Aristotle uses that argument against Plato\\\'s [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_forms Theory of Forms]]
** According to most Mormon sources, \\\'God the Father\\\' himself was once (like a) human, and lived on a planet with his own higher God to look up to. It\\\'s kind of implied that this keeps going up the ranks, and outright stated that in the afterlife, you too can become a god and make your own world, full of people. Try to guess what happens to them in the afterlife.
** The argument, also known as the \\\"creatio ex nihilo\\\" Argument, is rather stated that everything that has begun to exist must have been created. At the end of the line, therefore, for the argument to work, is the Ur-Creator, who is \\\'Himself\\\' not-created, since \\\'He\\\' has somehow * always* existed, even before the beginning of time. This is a definitional issue, and the standard definition used by most proponents of this argument. In any event, in real-world situations the only people who do NOT use this argument are steady-staters; whether you believe in the Big Bang, Quantum Handwaving, or [[AWizardDidIt God Made It]], * something* kick-started the universe. And logically, that something must predate the universe.
*** This is the main reason why a lot of theoretical physicists these days are leaning on the circular universe explanation, or a variation thereof that doesn\\\'t require a \\\"beginning\\\" or an \\\"end\\\". The problem is that their calculations have so many interpretations that no single theory has been able to prevail over the others, meaning that that the rest of us still have to read about a Big Bang as \\\'\\\'the\\\'\\\' start of the Universe in our high-school textbooks, because these non-scientist types just can\\\'t deal with uncertainity.
**** Realistically speaking, most scientist types have trouble dealing with it as well. The human brain really just isn\\\'t equipped to deal with concepts like \\\"infinity\\\" and \\\"eternity\\\" on any level beyond the symbolic.
***** This troper thinks its simple, nothing exist including laws saying nothing is nothing, the instability creates realities that exist nowhere and don\\\'t really \\\"exist\\\".
*** Quantum physics imply that nothingness is in itself an illusion - there is no such thing as a true void. Hence, existence is always constant, and the question why something exists is misleading, since it would be more incredible for \\\"nothing\\\" to exist anywhere.
