Discussion History Characters / DragonBallVegeta

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Additionally, even if we assume the red lightning is \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' from the Greater Will despite the above, consider one more thing. Why only \\\'\\\'Placidusax\\\'\\\' has golden fire breath and all the other dragons, be it the lesser modern dragons or the ancient Stoneguards, breathe out normal fire? Didn\\\'t all of them derive power from faith of the Greater Will if they serve it (as Dragon Communion spells are all Incantations)?

Most spells and powers derived from the Greater Will so far are always golden (as far as I remember, the only exceptions are the Erdtree Incantation mimicking Maliketh\\\'s Black Blade, and Two Fingers Faithful Incantation casting Darkness). The dragons not breathing golden flame \\\'\\\'in general\\\'\\\' is already a clue they aren\\\'t normally connected to the Elden Ring.

Even if we assume ancient dragons other than Placidusax have their \\\"divinity\\\" dilute like lesser demigod descendants (like Godrick), they should \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' have the golden aura, as everyone from the Golden Lineage still has it no matter how diluted. Even the Tarnished, mildly implied to be a distant descendant of Godfrey due to their \\\"warrior\\\'s blood\\\" being commented by a few characters, still retain the gold. But as we both can agree, not a single dragon in the game have anything golden about them except Fortissax wielding Godwyn\\\'s lightning and Placidusax exhaling golden breath.

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Additionally, even if we assume the red lightning is \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' from the Greater Will despite the above, consider one more thing. Why only \\\'\\\'Placidusax\\\'\\\' has golden fire breath and all the other dragons, be it the lesser modern dragons or the ancient Stoneguards, breathe out normal fire? Didn\\\'t all of them derive power from faith of the Greater Will if they serve it (as Dragon Communion spells are all Incantations)?

Most spells and powers derived from the Greater Will so far have always been golden (as far as I remember, the only exceptions are the Erdtree Incantation mimicking Maliketh\\\'s Black Blade, and Two Fingers Faithful Incantation casting Darkness). The dragons not breathing golden flame \\\'\\\'in general\\\'\\\' is already a clue they aren\\\'t normally connected to the Elden Ring.

Even if we assume ancient dragons other than Placidusax have their \\\"divinity\\\" dilute like lesser demigod descendants (like Godrick), they should \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' have the golden aura, as everyone from the Golden Lineage still has it no matter how diluted. Even the Tarnished, mildly implied to be a distant descendant of Godfrey due to their \\\"warrior\\\'s blood\\\" being commented by a few characters, still retain the gold. But as we both can agree, not a single dragon in the game have anything golden about them except Fortissax wielding Godwyn\\\'s lightning and Placidusax exhaling golden breath.

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Additionally, even if we assume the red lightning is \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' from the Greater Will despite the above, consider one more thing. Why only \\\'\\\'Placidusax\\\'\\\' has golden fire breath and all the other dragons, be it the lesser modern dragons or the ancient Stoneguards, breathe out normal fire? Didn\\\'t all of them derive power from their faith of the Greater Will if they serve it?

Most spells and powers derived from the Greater Will so far have always been golden (as far as I remember, the only exceptions are the Erdtree Incantation mimicking Maliketh\\\'s Black Blade, and Two Fingers Faithful Incantation casting Darkness). The dragons not breathing golden flame \\\'\\\'in general\\\'\\\' is already a clue they aren\\\'t normally connected to the Elden Ring.

Even if we assume ancient dragons other than Placidusax have their \\\"divinity\\\" dilute like lesser demigod descendants (like Godrick), they should \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' have the golden aura, as everyone from the Golden Lineage still has it no matter how diluted. Even the Tarnished, mildly implied to be a distant descendant of Godfrey due to their \\\"warrior\\\'s blood\\\" being commented by a few characters, still retain the gold. But as we both can agree, not a single dragon in the game have anything golden about them except Fortissax wielding Godwyn\\\'s lightning and Placidusax exhaling golden breath.

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Additionally, even if we assume the red lightning is \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' from the Greater Will despite the above, consider one more thing. Why only \\\'\\\'Placidusax\\\'\\\' has golden fire breath and all the other dragons, be it the lesser modern dragons or the ancient Stoneguards, breathe out normal fire? Didn\\\'t all of them derive power from their faith of the Greater Will if they serve it?

Most spells and powers derived from the Greater Will so far have always been golden (as far as I know the only exceptions are the Erdtree Incantation mimicking Maliketh\\\'s Black Blade, and Two Fingers Faithful Incantation casting Darkness). The dragons not breathing golden flame \\\'\\\'in general\\\'\\\' is already a clue they aren\\\'t normally connected to the Elden Ring.

Even if we assume ancient dragons other than Placidusax have their \\\"divinity\\\" dilute like lesser demigod descendants (like Godrick), they should \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' have the golden aura, as everyone from the Golden Lineage still has it no matter how diluted. Even the Tarnished, mildly implied to be a distant descendant of Godfrey due to their \\\"warrior\\\'s blood\\\" being commented by a few characters, still retain the gold. But as we both can agree, not a single dragon in the game have anything golden about them except Fortissax wielding Godwyn\\\'s lightning and Placidusax exhaling golden breath.

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Additionally, even if we assume the red lightning is \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' from the Greater Will despite the above, consider one more thing. Why only \\\'\\\'Placidusax\\\'\\\' has golden fire breath and all the other dragons, be it the lesser modern dragons or the ancient Stoneguards, breathe out normal fire? Didn\\\'t all of them derive power from their faith of the Greater Will if they serve it?

Every single elemental manifestation which is derived from Greater Will so far have always been golden. The dragons not breathing golden flame \\\'\\\'in general\\\'\\\' is already a clue they aren\\\'t normally connected to the Elden Ring. Even if we assume ancient dragons other than Placidusax have their \\\"divinity\\\" dilute like lesser demigod descendants (like Godrick), they should \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' have the golden aura, as everyone from the Golden Lineage still has it no matter how diluted. Even the Tarnished, mildly implied to be a distant descendant of Godfrey due to their \\\"warrior\\\'s blood\\\" being commented by a few characters, still retain the gold.

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Additionally, even if we assume the red lightning is \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' from the Greater Will despite the above, consider one more thing. Why only \\\'\\\'Placidusax\\\'\\\' has golden fire breath and all the other dragons, be it the lesser modern dragons or the ancient Stoneguards, breathe out normal fire? Aren\\\'t they all servants of Greater Will?

Every single elemental manifestation which is derived from Greater Will so far have always been golden. The dragons not breathing golden flame \\\'\\\'in general\\\'\\\' is already a clue they aren\\\'t normally connected to the Elden Ring. Even if we assume ancient dragons other than Placidusax have their \\\"divinity\\\" dilute like lesser demigod descendants (like Godrick), they should \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' have the golden aura, as everyone from the Golden Lineage still has it no matter how diluted. Even the Tarnished, mildly implied to be a distant descendant of Godfrey due to their \\\"warrior\\\'s blood\\\" being commented by a few characters, still retain the gold.

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they always had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Back to the point; my argument was never \\\"The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will\\\" or proving \\\"the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will\\\".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still \\\'\\\'possible\\\'\\\', and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let\\\'s focus on that.

Let\\\'s present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be \\\"thought as an ancient dragon\\\'s scale\\\" -- as in, it might or might not be \\\'\\\'actually\\\'\\\' an ancient dragon\\\'s scale, it\\\'s a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield\\\'s description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions \\\"The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.\\\" And it shows -- the lightning used by practitioners of the capital\\\'s dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn\\\'s lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn\\\'t exist until the rise of Leyndell\\\'s dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed \\\'\\\'after\\\'\\\' Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax\\\'s Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax\\\'s twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let\\\'s ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have \\\'\\\'golden\\\'\\\' lightning, as this seal \\\'\\\'believed\\\'\\\' to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be \\\'\\\'secret\\\'\\\' incantations of the Dragon Cult. It\\\'s not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax\\\'s favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren\\\'t contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even \\\'\\\'seen\\\'\\\' much by the people (\\\"Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons.\\\" -- as in, red lightning hasn\\\'t been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon\\\'s red lightning aren\\\'t used by Leyndell\\\'s practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are \\\'\\\'particularly\\\'\\\' obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula used red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult as well.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be \\\'\\\'as golden as Placidusax\\\'s breath\\\'\\\' from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult \\\'\\\'tried\\\'\\\' to make it seem they always had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.