Discussion History Characters / ShinMegamiTenseiForcesOfLaw

Now to the meat of the matter: Apocalypse\\\'s 大いなる理, which \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' means something philosophically different from both words used to describe Great Will, as \\\"理\\\" (Ri/Kotowari, more or less, natural Reason of things; it\\\'s a similar concept to the one used in Nocturne though it was in katakana and didn\\\'t use any kanji) is distinct from both 志 (\\\"kokorozashi\\\") or 思 (\\\"shi\\\").

Because of this change in kanji, some of us in the fandom have assumed Great Will and Axiom as two distinct entities, because the different wording 大いなる理 used in all of Apocalypse and the absence of both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 means the Great Will is absent and suggesting a distinction. However putting and exploring the meanings of all three terms together, it becomes apparent the usage of different kanjis is not meant as distinction, but simply done to better suit the themes of their respective games, seeing as 大いなる意志 of MT II and SMT II changes into 大いなる意思 for Nocturne, then changes again into 大いなる理 which is in itself a reference to the Kotowari/Reason concept of Nocturne.

This isn\\\'t the first time the kanji of an important concept changes either: 魔界 or Makai (localized to many different names in the West: Demon World, Abyss, and most recently Expanse), also had a different kanji in \\\'\\\'IMAGINE\\\'\\\', being 魔階 as opposed to 魔界. As looking up Japanese dictionaries will tell you, 界 generally means \\\"realm\\\" or \\\"world\\\" while 階 refers more to \\\"plane\\\" or \\\"floor\\\" (kinda like the Kalpas of Labyrinth of Amala in Nocturne). Yet despite this IMAGINE\\\'s version of 魔階 isn\\\'t anything significantly different from 魔界 of the games before, or indeed after it.

More importantly, \\\'\\\'Stephen himself\\\'\\\' does not make that distinction. I think I speak for most of us when I say we overlooked one thing; during Messiahs in the Diamond Realm, Stephen mentions by extending a chance of salvation to The Hero, Aleph, Demi-fiend and IV\\\'s Flynn, he is defying the laws put in place by 大いなる理 or the Axiom. This is in spite of the fact SMT I and II world is \\\'\\\'explicitly\\\'\\\' governed by 大いなる意志 wording of Great Will and III\\\'s Amala is also unambiguously governed by 大いなる意思 wording of Great Will. If either of these Great Wills are distinct from each other or from Axiom, then Stephen would have mentioned he is defying the laws put in place by more than \\\'\\\'just\\\'\\\' the Axiom, but \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' these entities. The fact Stephen does not distinguish them does not \\\'\\\'directly\\\'\\\' prove they are the same, but it also does not imply \\\'\\\'any distinction whatsoever\\\'\\\'. In fact, to posit that 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 are distinct \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' Wild Mass Guessing.

While it is possible any of this is an oversight on account of different writers and producers, we should \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' put speculations beyond what is stated by the games and the developers. Bottom line, \\\'\\\'\\\'we should not distinguish 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理\\\'\\\'\\\' beyond what are implied by the games themselves. Stephen makes no such distinction and neither should we.

That\\\'s the first conclusion I have arrived to, but I am not done yet. The information from \\\'\\\'V\\\'\\\' brings us to another conundrum; Great Will (大いなる意志, which is from MT II and SMT II and \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' Nocturne) and Mandala (マンダラの法則); are they the same or distinct?

Fortunately, we can answer this much more clearly. One of SMT\\\'s older games \\\'\\\'have\\\'\\\' used something extremely similar to the Mandala System spoken of in V, and that was [[https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2021/11/12/kaneko-works-iii-yaldabaoth-maria-adam-eve/ the Eternal Recurrence System]] in NINE. Unlike in V where the distinction between Great Will and Mandala can be hard to tell (due to Panagia claiming she is acting on behalf of Great Will while Lucifer claims she perpetuates the Mandala System instead), in NINE the distinction is very much made clear; the Eternal Recurrence System is distinct from Yaldabaoth (explicitly noted to be this game\\\'s YHVH) and also distinct from the Great Will (though it is not mentioned in this game, STEVEN\\\'s presence and assistance in this game speaks enough).

However, that is how it worked in NINE. How do we explain Lucifer calling the system Panagia is a part of the Mandala while Panagia herself claims she is acting on behalf of Great Will (like Nocturne\\\'s Kagutsuchi and Metatron did)? Let\\\'s stick to what is mentioned in the game itself; Lucifer claims he became a transcedent, and indeed he does and say things he would never be able to unless he is aware of Great Will and its systems in this universe.

Given that it\\\'s mentioned over and again Great Will is quite literally \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' and all of reality is part of it (first stated in MT II; further reinforced in Last Bible and SMT II), it\\\'s a logical conclusion that Panagia \\\'\\\'could not distinguish\\\'\\\' the Mandala System (which is only part of Great Will) from the whole entity like Lucifer does after transcending. It\\\'s quite similar to how most incarnations of YHVH (NINE, Strange Journey Redux, IV: Apocalypse, etc) claim they are acting on behalf of Great Will while it\\\'s quite apparent they are... not.

Overall, my second conclusion is \\\'\\\'\\\'the Mandala System is only part of Great Will\\\'s system\\\'\\\'\\\' in SMT V continuity, based on information we have so far.

Any thoughts on the 2 conclusions I have drawn? If there is no detail which contradicts any of the things I have mentioned, I will work right away and edit in the Axiom\\\'s tropes back to the Great Will folder in this page, among other things.

Now to the meat of the matter: Apocalypse\\\'s 大いなる理, which \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' means something philosophically different from both words used to describe Great Will, as \\\"理\\\" (Ri/Kotowari, more or less, natural Reason of things; it\\\'s a similar concept to the one used in Nocturne though it was in katakana and didn\\\'t use any kanji) is distinct from both 志 (\\\"kokorozashi\\\") or 思 (\\\"shi\\\").

Because of this change in kanji, some of us in the fandom have assumed Great Will and Axiom as two distinct entities, because the different wording 大いなる理 used in all of Apocalypse and the absence of both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 means the Great Will is absent and suggesting a distinction. However putting and exploring the meanings of all three terms together, it becomes apparent the usage of different kanjis is not meant as distinction, but simply done to better suit the themes of their respective games, seeing as 大いなる意志 of MT II and SMT II changes into 大いなる意思 for Nocturne, then changes again into 大いなる理 which is in itself a reference to the Kotowari/Reason concept of Nocturne.

This isn\\\'t the first time the kanji of an important concept changes either: 魔界 or Makai (localized to many different names in the West: Demon World, Abyss, and most recently Expanse), also had a different kanji in \\\'\\\'IMAGINE\\\'\\\', being 魔階 as opposed to 魔界. As looking up Japanese dictionaries will tell you, 界 generally means \\\"realm\\\" or \\\"world\\\" while 階 refers more to \\\"plane\\\" or \\\"floor\\\" (kinda like the Kalpas of Labyrinth of Amala in Nocturne). Yet despite this IMAGINE\\\'s version of 魔階 isn\\\'t anything significantly different from 魔界 of the games before, or indeed after it.

More importantly, \\\'\\\'Stephen himself\\\'\\\' does not make that distinction. I think I speak for most of us when I say we overlooked one thing; during Messiahs in the Diamond Realm, Stephen mentions by extending a chance of salvation to The Hero, Aleph, Demi-fiend and IV\\\'s Flynn, he is defying the laws put in place by 大いなる理 or the Axiom. This is in spite of the fact SMT I and II world is \\\'\\\'explicitly\\\'\\\' governed by 大いなる意志 wording of Great Will and III\\\'s Amala is also unambiguously governed by 大いなる意思 wording of Great Will. If either of these Great Wills are distinct from each other or from Axiom, then Stephen would have mentioned he is defying the laws put in place by more than \\\'\\\'just\\\'\\\' the Axiom, but \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' these entities. The fact Stephen does not distinguish them does not \\\'\\\'directly\\\'\\\' prove they are the same, but it also does not imply \\\'\\\'any distinction whatsoever\\\'\\\'. In fact, to posit that 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 are distinct \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' Wild Mass Guessing.

While it is possible any or this is an oversight on account of different writers and producers, we should \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' put speculations beyond what is stated by the games and the developers. Bottom line, \\\'\\\'\\\'we should not distinguish 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理\\\'\\\'\\\' beyond what are implied by the games themselves. Stephen makes no such distinction and neither should we.

That\\\'s the first conclusion I have arrived to, but I am not done yet. The information from \\\'\\\'V\\\'\\\' brings us to another conundrum; Great Will (大いなる意志, which is from MT II and SMT II and \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' Nocturne) and Mandala (マンダラの法則); are they the same or distinct?

Fortunately, we can answer this much more clearly. One of SMT\\\'s older games \\\'\\\'have\\\'\\\' used something extremely similar to the Mandala System spoken of in V, and that was [[https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2021/11/12/kaneko-works-iii-yaldabaoth-maria-adam-eve/ the Eternal Recurrence System]] in NINE. Unlike in V where the distinction between Great Will and Mandala can be hard to tell (due to Panagia claiming she is acting on behalf of Great Will while Lucifer claims she perpetuates the Mandala System instead), in NINE the distinction is very much made clear; the Eternal Recurrence System is distinct from Yaldabaoth (explicitly noted to be this game\\\'s YHVH) and also distinct from the Great Will (though it is not mentioned in this game, STEVEN\\\'s presence and assistance in this game speaks enough).

However, that is how it worked in NINE. How do we explain Lucifer calling the system Panagia is a part of the Mandala while Panagia herself claims she is acting on behalf of Great Will (like Nocturne\\\'s Kagutsuchi and Metatron did)? Let\\\'s stick to what is mentioned in the game itself; Lucifer claims he became a transcedent, and indeed he does and say things he would never be able to unless he is aware of Great Will and its systems in this universe.

Given that it\\\'s mentioned over and again Great Will is quite literally \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' and all of reality is part of it (first stated in MT II; further reinforced in Last Bible and SMT II), it\\\'s a logical conclusion that Panagia \\\'\\\'could not distinguish\\\'\\\' the Mandala System (which is only part of Great Will) from the whole entity like Lucifer does after transcending. It\\\'s quite similar to how most incarnations of YHVH (NINE, Strange Journey Redux, IV: Apocalypse, etc) claim they are acting on behalf of Great Will while it\\\'s quite apparent they are... not.

Overall, my second conclusion is \\\'\\\'\\\'the Mandala System is only part of Great Will\\\'s system\\\'\\\'\\\' in SMT V continuity, based on information we have so far.

Any thoughts on the 2 conclusions I have drawn? If there is no detail which contradicts any of the things I have mentioned, I will work right away and edit in the Axiom\\\'s tropes back to the Great Will folder in this page, among other things.

Now to the meat of the matter: Apocalypse\\\'s 大いなる理, which \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' means something philosophically different from both words used to describe Great Will, as \\\"理\\\" (Ri/Kotowari, more or less, natural Reason of things; it\\\'s a similar concept to the one used in Nocturne though it was in katakana and didn\\\'t use any kanji) is distinct from both 志 (\\\"kokorozashi\\\") or 思 (\\\"shi\\\").

Because of this change in kanji, some of us in the fandom have assumed Great Will and Axiom as two distinct entities, because the different wording 大いなる理 used in all of Apocalypse and the absence of both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 means the Great Will is absent and suggesting a distinction. However putting and exploring the meanings of all three terms together, it becomes apparent the usage of different kanjis is not meant as distinction, but simply done to better suit the themes of their respective games, seeing as 大いなる意志 of MT II and SMT II changes into 大いなる意思 for Nocturne, then changes again into 大いなる理 which is in itself a reference to the Kotowari/Reason concept of Nocturne.

This isn\\\'t the first time the kanji of an important concept changes either: 魔界 or Makai (localized to many different names in the West: Demon World, Abyss, and most recently Expanse), also had a different kanji in \\\'\\\'IMAGINE\\\'\\\', being 魔階 as opposed to 魔界. As looking up Japanese dictionaries will tell you, 界 generally means \\\"realm\\\" or \\\"world\\\" while 階 refers more to \\\"plane\\\" or \\\"floor\\\" (kinda like the Kalpas of Labyrinth of Amala in Nocturne). Yet despite this IMAGINE\\\'s version of 魔階 isn\\\'t anything significantly different from 魔界 of the games before, or indeed after it.

More importantly, \\\'\\\'Stephen himself\\\'\\\' does not make that distinction. I think I speak for most of us when I say we overlooked one thing; during Messiahs in the Diamond Realm, Stephen mentions by extending a chance of salvation to The Hero, Aleph, Demi-fiend and IV\\\'s Flynn, he is defying the laws put in place by 大いなる理 or the Axiom. This is in spite of the fact SMT I and II world is \\\'\\\'explicitly\\\'\\\' governed by 大いなる意志 wording of Great Will and III\\\'s Amala is also unambiguously governed by 大いなる意思 wording of Great Will. If either of these Great Wills are distinct from each other or from Axiom, then Stephen would have mentioned he is defying the laws put in place by more than \\\'\\\'just\\\'\\\' the Axiom, but \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' these entities. The fact Stephen does not distinguish them does not \\\'\\\'directly\\\'\\\' prove they are the same, but it also does not imply \\\'\\\'any distinction whatsoever\\\'\\\'. In fact, to posit that 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 are distinct \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' Wild Mass Guessing.

While it is possible any or this is an oversight on account of different writers and producers, we should \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' put speculations beyond what is stated by the games and the developers. Bottom line, \\\'\\\'\\\'we should not distinguish 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理\\\'\\\'\\\' beyond what are implied by the games themselves. Stephen makes no such distinction and neither should we.

That\\\'s the first conclusion I have arrived to, but I am not done yet. The information from \\\'\\\'V\\\'\\\' brings us to another conundrum; Great Will (大いなる意志, which is from MT II and SMT II and \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' Nocturne) and Mandala (マンダラの法則); are they the same or distinct?

Fortunately, we can answer this much more clearly. One of SMT\\\'s older games \\\'\\\'have\\\'\\\' used something extremely similar to the Mandala System spoken of in V, and that was [[https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2021/11/12/kaneko-works-iii-yaldabaoth-maria-adam-eve/ the Eternal Recurrence System]] in NINE. Unlike in V where the distinction between Great Will and Mandala can be hard to tell (due to Panagia claiming she is acting on behalf of Great Will while Lucifer claims she perpetuates the Mandala System instead), in NINE the distinction is very much made clear; the Eternal Recurrence System is distinct from Yaldabaoth (explicitly noted to be this game\\\'s YHVH) and also distinct from the Great Will (though it is not mentioned in this game, STEVEN\\\'s presence and assistance in this game speaks enough).

However, that is how it worked in NINE. How do we explain Lucifer calling the system Panagia is a part of the Mandala while Panagia herself claims she is acting on behalf of Great Will (like Nocturne\\\'s Kagutsuchi and Metatron did)? Let\\\'s stick to what is mentioned in the game itself; Lucifer claims he became a transcedent, and indeed he does and say things he would never be able to unless he is aware of Great Will and its systems in this universe. Given that it\\\'s mentioned over and again Great Will is quite literally \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' and all of reality is part of it (first stated in MT II; further reinforced in Last Bible and SMT II), it\\\'s a logical conclusion that Panagia \\\'\\\'could not distinguish\\\'\\\' the Mandala System (which is only part of Great Will) from the whole entity like Lucifer does after transcending. It\\\'s quite similar to how most incarnations of YHVH (NINE, Strange Journey Redux, IV: Apocalypse, etc) claim they are acting on behalf of Great Will while it\\\'s quite apparent they are... not.

Overall, my second conclusion is \\\'\\\'\\\'the Mandala System is only part of Great Will\\\'s system\\\'\\\'\\\' in SMT V continuity, based on information we have so far.

Any thoughts on the 2 conclusions I have drawn? If there is no detail which contradicts any of the things I have mentioned, I will work right away and edit in the Axiom\\\'s tropes back to the Great Will folder in this page, among other things.

Now to the meat of the matter: Apocalypse\\\'s 大いなる理, which \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' means something philosophically different from both words used to describe Great Will, as \\\"理\\\" (Ri/Kotowari, more or less, natural Reason of things; it\\\'s a similar concept to the one used in Nocturne though it was in katakana and didn\\\'t use any kanji) is distinct from both 志 (\\\"kokorozashi\\\") or 思 (\\\"shi\\\").

Because of this change in kanji, some of us in the fandom have assumed Great Will and Axiom as two distinct entities, because the different wording 大いなる理 used in all of Apocalypse and the absence of both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 means the Great Will is absent and suggesting a distinction. However putting and exploring the meanings of all three terms together, it becomes apparent the usage of different kanjis is not meant as distinction, but simply done to better suit the themes of their respective games, seeing as 大いなる意志 of MT II and SMT II changes into 大いなる意思 for Nocturne, then changes again into 大いなる理 which is in itself a reference to the Kotowari/Reason concept of Nocturne.

This isn\\\'t the first time the kanji of an important concept changes either: 魔界 or Makai (localized to many different names in the West: Demon World, Abyss, and most recently Expanse), also had a different kanji in \\\'\\\'IMAGINE\\\'\\\', being 魔階 as opposed to 魔界. As looking up Japanese dictionaries will tell you, 界 generally means \\\"realm\\\" or \\\"world\\\" while 階 refers more to \\\"plane\\\" or \\\"floor\\\" (kinda like the Kalpas of Labyrinth of Amala in Nocturne). Yet despite this IMAGINE\\\'s version of 魔階 isn\\\'t anything significantly different from 魔界 of the games before, or indeed after it.

More importantly, \\\'\\\'Stephen himself\\\'\\\' does not make that distinction. I think I speak for most of us when I say we overlooked one thing; during Messiahs in the Diamond Realm, Stephen mentions by extending a chance of salvation to The Hero, Aleph, Demi-fiend and IV\\\'s Flynn, he is defying the laws put in place by 大いなる理 or the Axiom. This is in spite of the fact SMT I and II world is \\\'\\\'explicitly\\\'\\\' governed by 大いなる意志 wording of Great Will and III\\\'s Amala is also unambiguously governed by 大いなる意思 wording of Great Will. If either of these Great Wills are distinct from each other or from Axiom, then Stephen would have mentioned he is defying the laws put in place by more than \\\'\\\'just\\\'\\\' the Axiom, but \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' these entities. The fact Stephen does not distinguish them does not \\\'\\\'directly\\\'\\\' prove they are the same, but it also does not imply \\\'\\\'any distinction whatsoever\\\'\\\'. In fact, to posit that 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 are distinct \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' Wild Mass Guessing.

While it is possible any or this is an oversight on account of different writers and producers, we should \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' put speculations beyond what is stated by the games and the developers. Bottom line, \\\'\\\'\\\'we should not distinguish 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理\\\'\\\'\\\' beyond what are implied by the games themselves. Stephen makes no such distinction and neither should we.

That\\\'s the first conclusion I have arrived to, but I am not done yet. The information from \\\'\\\'V\\\'\\\' brings us to another conundrum; Great Will (大いなる意志, which is from MT II and SMT II and \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' Nocturne) and Mandala (マンダラの法則); are they the same or distinct?

Fortunately, we can answer this much more clearly. One of SMT\\\'s older games \\\'\\\'have\\\'\\\' used something extremely similar to the Mandala System spoken of in V, and that was [[https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2021/11/12/kaneko-works-iii-yaldabaoth-maria-adam-eve/ the Eternal Recurrence System]] in NINE. Unlike in V where the distinction between Great Will and Mandala can be hard to tell (due to Panagia claiming she is acting on behalf of Great Will while Lucifer claims she perpetuates the Mandala System instead), in NINE the distinction is very much made clear; the Eternal Recurrence System is distinct from Yaldabaoth (explicitly noted to be this game\\\'s YHVH) and also distinct from the Great Will (though it is not mentioned in this game, STEVEN\\\'s presence and assistance in this game speaks enough).

However, that is how it worked in NINE. How do we explain Lucifer calling the system Panagia is a part of the Mandala while Panagia herself claims she is acting on behalf of Great Will (like Nocturne\\\'s Kagutsuchi and Metatron did)? Let\\\'s stick to what is mentioned in the game itself; Lucifer claims he became a transcedent, and indeed he does and say things he would never be able to unless he is aware of Great Will and its systems in this universe. Given that it\\\'s mentioned over and again Great Will is quite literally \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' and all of reality is part of it (first stated in SMT II), it\\\'s a logical conclusion that Panagia \\\'\\\'could not distinguish\\\'\\\' the Mandala System (which is only part of Great Will) from the whole entity like Lucifer does after transcending. It\\\'s quite similar to how most incarnations of YHVH (NINE, Strange Journey Redux, IV: Apocalypse, etc) claim they are acting on behalf of Great Will while it\\\'s quite apparent they are... not.

Overall, my second conclusion is \\\'\\\'\\\'the Mandala System is only part of Great Will\\\'s system\\\'\\\'\\\' in SMT V continuity, based on information we have so far.

Any thoughts on the 2 conclusions I have drawn? If there is no detail which contradicts any of the things I have mentioned, I will work right away and edit in the Axiom\\\'s tropes back to the Great Will folder in this page, among other things.

Now to the meat of the matter: Apocalypse\\\'s 大いなる理, which \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' means something philosophically different from both words used to describe Great Will, as \\\"理\\\" (Ri/Kotowari, more or less, natural Reason of things; it\\\'s a similar concept to the one used in Nocturne though it was in katakana and didn\\\'t use any kanji) is distinct from both 志 (\\\"kokorozashi\\\") or 思 (\\\"shi\\\").

Because of this change in kanji, some of us in the fandom have assumed Great Will and Axiom as two distinct entities, because the different wording 大いなる理 used in all of Apocalypse and the absence of both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 means the Great Will is absent and suggesting a distinction. However putting and exploring the meanings of all three terms together, it becomes apparent the usage of different kanjis is not meant as distinction, but simply done to better suit the themes of their respective games, seeing as 大いなる意志 of MT II and SMT II changes into 大いなる意思 for Nocturne, then changes again into 大いなる理 which is in itself a reference to the Kotowari/Reason concept of Nocturne.

This isn\\\'t the first time the kanji of an important concept changes either: 魔界 or Makai (localized to many different names in the West: Demon World, Abyss, and most recently Expanse), also had a different kanji in \\\'\\\'IMAGINE\\\'\\\', being 魔階 as opposed to 魔界. As looking up Japanese dictionaries will tell you, 界 generally means \\\"realm\\\" or \\\"world\\\" while 階 refers more to \\\"plane\\\" or \\\"floor\\\" (kinda like the Kalpas of Labyrinth of Amala in Nocturne). Yet despite this IMAGINE\\\'s version of 魔階 isn\\\'t anything significantly different from 魔界 of the games before, or indeed after it.

More importantly, \\\'\\\'Stephen himself\\\'\\\' does not make that distinction. I think I speak for most of us when I say we overlooked one thing; during Messiahs in the Diamond Realm, Stephen mentions by extending a chance of salvation to The Hero, Aleph, Demi-fiend and IV\\\'s Flynn, he is defying the laws put in place by 大いなる理 or the Axiom. This is in spite of the fact SMT I and II world is \\\'\\\'explicitly\\\'\\\' governed by 大いなる意志 wording of Great Will and III\\\'s Amala is also unambiguously governed by 大いなる意思 wording of Great Will. If either of these Great Wills are distinct from each other or from Axiom, then Stephen would have mentioned he is defying the laws put in place by more than \\\'\\\'just\\\'\\\' the Axiom, but \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' these entities. The fact Stephen does not distinguish them does not \\\'\\\'directly\\\'\\\' prove they are the same, but it also does not imply \\\'\\\'any distinction whatsoever\\\'\\\'. In fact, to posit that 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 are distinct \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' Wild Mass Guessing.

While it is possible any or this is an oversight on account of different writers and producers, we should \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' put speculations beyond what is stated by the games and the developers. Bottom line, \\\'\\\'\\\'we should not distinguish 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理\\\'\\\'\\\' beyond what are implied by the games themselves. Stephen makes no such distinction and neither should we.

That\\\'s the first conclusion I have arrived to, but I am not done yet. The information from \\\'\\\'V\\\'\\\' brings us to another conundrum; Great Will (大いなる意志, which is from MT II and SMT II) and Mandala (マンダラの法則); are they the same or distinct?

Fortunately, we can answer this much more clearly. One of SMT\\\'s older games \\\'\\\'have\\\'\\\' used something extremely similar to the Mandala System spoken of in V, and that was [[https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2021/11/12/kaneko-works-iii-yaldabaoth-maria-adam-eve/ the Eternal Recurrence System]] in NINE. Unlike in V where the distinction between Great Will and Mandala can be hard to tell (due to Panagia claiming she is acting on behalf of Great Will while Lucifer claims she perpetuates the Mandala System instead), in NINE the distinction is very much made clear; the Eternal Recurrence System is distinct from Yaldabaoth (explicitly noted to be this game\\\'s YHVH) and also distinct from the Great Will (though it is not mentioned in this game, STEVEN\\\'s presence and assistance in this game speaks enough).

However, that is how it worked in NINE. How do we explain Lucifer calling the system Panagia is a part of the Mandala while Panagia herself claims she is acting on behalf of Great Will (like Nocturne\\\'s Kagutsuchi and Metatron did)? Let\\\'s stick to what is mentioned in the game itself; Lucifer claims he became a transcedent, and indeed he does and say things he would never be able to unless he is aware of Great Will and its systems in this universe. Given that it\\\'s mentioned over and again Great Will is quite literally \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' and all of reality is part of it (first stated in SMT II), it\\\'s a logical conclusion that Panagia \\\'\\\'could not distinguish\\\'\\\' the Mandala System (which is only part of Great Will) from the whole entity like Lucifer does after transcending. It\\\'s quite similar to how most incarnations of YHVH (NINE, Strange Journey Redux, IV: Apocalypse, etc) claim they are acting on behalf of Great Will while it\\\'s quite apparent they are... not.

Overall, my second conclusion is \\\'\\\'\\\'the Mandala System is only part of Great Will\\\'s system\\\'\\\'\\\' in SMT V continuity, based on information we have so far.

Any thoughts on the 2 conclusions I have drawn? If there is no detail which contradicts any of the things I have mentioned, I will work right away and edit in the Axiom\\\'s tropes back to the Great Will folder in this page, among other things.

Now to the meat of the matter: Apocalypse\\\'s 大いなる理, which \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' means something philosophically different from both words used to describe Great Will, as \\\"理\\\" (Ri/Kotowari, more or less, natural Reason of things; it\\\'s a similar concept to the one used in Nocturne though it was in katakana and didn\\\'t use any kanji) is distinct from both 志 (\\\"kokorozashi\\\") or 思 (\\\"shi\\\").

Because of this change in kanji, some of us in the fandom have assumed Great Will and Axiom as two distinct entities, because the different wording 大いなる理 used in all of Apocalypse and the absence of both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 means the Great Will is absent and suggesting a distinction. However putting and exploring the meanings of all three terms together, it becomes apparent the usage of different kanjis is not meant as distinction, but simply done to better suit the themes of their respective games, seeing as 大いなる意志 of MT II and SMT II changes into 大いなる意思 for Nocturne, then changes again into 大いなる理 which is in itself a reference to the Kotowari/Reason concept of Nocturne.

This isn\\\'t the first time the kanji of an important concept changes either: 魔界 or Makai (localized to many different names in the West: Demon World, Abyss, and most recently Expanse), also had a different kanji in \\\'\\\'IMAGINE\\\'\\\', being 魔階 as opposed to 魔界. As looking up Japanese dictionaries will tell you, 界 generally means \\\"realm\\\" or \\\"world\\\" while 階 refers more to \\\"plane\\\" or \\\"floor\\\" (kinda like the Kalpas of Labyrinth of Amala in Nocturne). Yet despite this IMAGINE\\\'s version of 魔階 isn\\\'t anything significantly different from 魔界 of the games before, or indeed after it.

More importantly, \\\'\\\'Stephen himself\\\'\\\' does not make that distinction. I think I speak for most of us when I say we overlooked one thing; during Messiahs in the Diamond Realm, Stephen mentions by extending a chance of salvation to The Hero, Aleph, Demi-fiend and IV\\\'s Flynn, he is defying the laws put in place by 大いなる理 or the Axiom. This is in spite of the fact SMT I and II world is \\\'\\\'explicitly\\\'\\\' governed by 大いなる意志 wording of Great Will and III\\\'s Amala is also unambiguously governed by 大いなる意思 wording of Great Will. If either of these Great Wills are distinct from each other or from Axiom, then Stephen would have mentioned he is \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' defying the laws put in place by more than \\\'\\\'just\\\'\\\' the Axiom, but these entities. The fact Stephen does not distinguish them does not \\\'\\\'directly\\\'\\\' prove they are the same, but it also does not imply \\\'\\\'any distinction whatsoever\\\'\\\'. In fact, to posit that 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 are distinct \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' Wild Mass Guessing.

While it is possible any or this is an oversight on account of different writers and producers, we should \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' put speculations beyond what is stated by the games and the developers. Bottom line, \\\'\\\'\\\'we should not distinguish 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理\\\'\\\'\\\' beyond what are implied by the games themselves. Stephen makes no such distinction and neither should we.

That\\\'s the first conclusion I have arrived to, but I am not done yet. The information from \\\'\\\'V\\\'\\\' brings us to another conundrum; Great Will (大いなる意志, which is from MT II and SMT II) and Mandala (マンダラの法則); are they the same or distinct?

Fortunately, we can answer this much more clearly. One of SMT\\\'s older games \\\'\\\'have\\\'\\\' used something extremely similar to the Mandala System spoken of in V, and that was [[https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2021/11/12/kaneko-works-iii-yaldabaoth-maria-adam-eve/ the Eternal Recurrence System]] in NINE. Unlike in V where the distinction between Great Will and Mandala can be hard to tell (due to Panagia claiming she is acting on behalf of Great Will while Lucifer claims she perpetuates the Mandala System instead), in NINE the distinction is very much made clear; the Eternal Recurrence System is distinct from Yaldabaoth (explicitly noted to be this game\\\'s YHVH) and also distinct from the Great Will (though it is not mentioned in this game, STEVEN\\\'s presence and assistance in this game speaks enough).

However, that is how it worked in NINE. How do we explain Lucifer calling the system Panagia is a part of the Mandala while Panagia herself claims she is acting on behalf of Great Will (like Nocturne\\\'s Kagutsuchi and Metatron did)? Let\\\'s stick to what is mentioned in the game itself; Lucifer claims he became a transcedent, and indeed he does and say things he would never be able to unless he is aware of Great Will and its systems in this universe. Given that it\\\'s mentioned over and again Great Will is quite literally \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' and all of reality is part of it (first stated in SMT II), it\\\'s a logical conclusion that Panagia \\\'\\\'could not distinguish\\\'\\\' the Mandala System (which is only part of Great Will) from the whole entity like Lucifer does after transcending. It\\\'s quite similar to how most incarnations of YHVH (NINE, Strange Journey Redux, IV: Apocalypse, etc) claim they are acting on behalf of Great Will while it\\\'s quite apparent they are... not.

Overall, my second conclusion is \\\'\\\'\\\'the Mandala System is only part of Great Will\\\'s system\\\'\\\'\\\' in SMT V continuity, based on information we have so far.

Any thoughts on the 2 conclusions I have drawn? If there is no detail which contradicts any of the things I have mentioned, I will work right away and edit in the Axiom\\\'s tropes back to the Great Will folder in this page, among other things.

Now to the meat of the matter: Apocalypse\\\'s 大いなる理, which \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' means something philosophically different from both words used to describe Great Will, as \\\"理\\\" (Ri/Kotowari, more or less, natural Reason of things; it\\\'s a similar concept to the one used in Nocturne though it was in katakana and didn\\\'t use any kanji) is distinct from both 志 (\\\"kokorozashi\\\") or 思 (\\\"shi\\\").

Because of this change in kanji, some of us in the fandom have assumed Great Will and Axiom as two distinct entities, because the different wording 大いなる理 used in all of Apocalypse and the absence of both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 means the Great Will is absent and suggesting a distinction. However putting and exploring the meanings of all three terms together, it becomes apparent the usage of different kanjis is not meant as distinction, but simply done to better suit the themes of their respective games, seeing as 大いなる意志 of MT II and SMT II changes into 大いなる意思 for Nocturne, then changes again into 大いなる理 which is in itself a reference to the Kotowari/Reason concept of Nocturne.

This isn\\\'t the first time the kanji of an important concept changes either: 魔界 or Makai (localized to many different names in the West: Demon World, Abyss, and most recently Expanse), also had a different kanji in \\\'\\\'IMAGINE\\\'\\\', being 魔階 as opposed to 魔界. As looking up Japanese dictionaries will tell you, 界 generally means \\\"realm\\\" or \\\"world\\\" while 階 refers more to \\\"plane\\\" or \\\"floor\\\" (kinda like the Kalpas of Labyrinth of Amala in Nocturne). Yet despite this Imagine\\\'s version of 魔階 isn\\\'t anything significantly different from 魔界 of the games before, or indeed after it.

More importantly, \\\'\\\'Stephen himself\\\'\\\' does not make that distinction. I think I speak for most of us when I say we overlooked one thing; during Messiahs in the Diamond Realm, Stephen mentions by extending a chance of salvation to The Hero, Aleph, Demi-fiend and IV\\\'s Flynn, he is defying the laws put in place by 大いなる理 or the Axiom. This is in spite of the fact SMT I and II world is \\\'\\\'explicitly\\\'\\\' governed by 大いなる意志 wording of Great Will and III\\\'s Amala is also unambiguously governed by 大いなる意思 wording of Great Will. If either of these Great Wills are distinct from each other or from Axiom, then Stephen would have mentioned he is \\\'\\\'also\\\'\\\' defying the laws put in place by more than \\\'\\\'just\\\'\\\' the Axiom, but these entities. The fact Stephen does not distinguish them does not \\\'\\\'directly\\\'\\\' prove they are the same, but it also does not imply \\\'\\\'any distinction whatsoever\\\'\\\'. In fact, to posit that 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 are distinct \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' Wild Mass Guessing.

While it is possible any or this is an oversight on account of different writers and producers, we should \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' put speculations beyond what is stated by the games and the developers. Bottom line, \\\'\\\'\\\'we should not distinguish 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理\\\'\\\'\\\' beyond what are implied by the games themselves. Stephen makes no such distinction and neither should we.

That\\\'s the first conclusion I have arrived to, but I am not done yet. The information from \\\'\\\'V\\\'\\\' brings us to another conundrum; Great Will (大いなる意志, which is from MT II and SMT II) and Mandala (マンダラの法則); are they the same or distinct?

Fortunately, we can answer this much more clearly. One of SMT\\\'s older games \\\'\\\'have\\\'\\\' used something extremely similar to the Mandala System spoken of in V, and that was [[https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2021/11/12/kaneko-works-iii-yaldabaoth-maria-adam-eve/ the Eternal Recurrence System]] in NINE. Unlike in V where the distinction between Great Will and Mandala can be hard to tell (due to Panagia claiming she is acting on behalf of Great Will while Lucifer claims she perpetuates the Mandala System instead), in NINE the distinction is very much made clear; the Eternal Recurrence System is distinct from Yaldabaoth (explicitly noted to be this game\\\'s YHVH) and also distinct from the Great Will (though it is not mentioned in this game, STEVEN\\\'s presence and assistance in this game speaks enough).

However, that is how it worked in NINE. How do we explain Lucifer calling the system Panagia is a part of the Mandala while Panagia herself claims she is acting on behalf of Great Will (like Nocturne\\\'s Kagutsuchi and Metatron did)? Let\\\'s stick to what is mentioned in the game itself; Lucifer claims he became a transcedent, and indeed he does and say things he would never be able to unless he is aware of Great Will and its systems in this universe. Given that it\\\'s mentioned over and again Great Will is quite literally \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' and all of reality is part of it (first stated in SMT II), it\\\'s a logical conclusion that Panagia \\\'\\\'could not distinguish\\\'\\\' the Mandala System (which is only part of Great Will) from the whole entity like Lucifer does after transcending. It\\\'s quite similar to how most incarnations of YHVH (NINE, Strange Journey Redux, IV: Apocalypse, etc) claim they are acting on behalf of Great Will while it\\\'s quite apparent they are... not.

Overall, my second conclusion is \\\'\\\'\\\'the Mandala System is only part of Great Will\\\'s system\\\'\\\'\\\' in SMT V continuity, based on information we have so far.

Any thoughts on the 2 conclusions I have drawn? If there is no detail which contradicts any of the things I have mentioned, I will work right away and edit in the Axiom\\\'s tropes back to the Great Will folder in this page, among other things.

After rewatching Apocalypse\\\'s English and Japanese playthrough, rereading [[http://eirikrjs.blogspot.com/2016/08/apocalypse-artbook.html eirikrj]]\\\'s translation of Apocalypse\\\'s artbook in addition to comparing it with [[https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2016/08/12/the-great-will-and-the-great-reason/ dijeh\\\'s]] own presentation of it, combined with the information given to us by V\\\'s game, I think all of us, but especially myself, have been \\\'\\\'overcomplicating\\\'\\\' things.