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[003] Asue Current Version

[002] NEX7

Changed line(s) 5 from:

Therefore, it is irrelevant if Fitz had a choice or not when having his memories altered. I do acknowledge that he didn't have a choice. However, despite the change in his memories, he still had complete control over his body and he still had free-will, at the end of the day, which was what the protagonists previously argued was the only important thing (which the story portrayed as correct and justified).

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Therefore, it is irrelevant if Fitz had a choice or not when having his memories altered. I do acknowledge that he didn\'t have a choice. However, despite the change in his memories, he still had complete control over his body and he still had free-will, at the end of the day, which was what the protagonists previously argued was the only important thing (which the story portrayed as correct and justified).

Changed line(s) 7 from:

Yet, now, when one of the protagonists did evil things because of these memories, the protagonists argue that he isn't at fault because he had his memories altered which should be counted as a factor when making a choice, and once again, the story says that they're correct.

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Yet, now, when one of the protagonists did evil things because of these memories, the protagonists argue that he isn\'t at fault because he had his memories altered which should be counted as a factor when making a choice, and once again, the story says that they\'re correct.

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And again, Framework!Ward is actually a part of the Framework, so one could actually argue that he is or isn't something of a clone of Ward who lived a different life. That is not the case with Fitz. Framework!Fitz and real-Fitz are the same person, and the proof lies in the fact that if Framework!Fitz dies, real-Fitz dies. Why? Because they're the same person, only acting differently because of different memories.

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And again, Framework!Ward is actually a part of the Framework, so one could actually argue that he is or isn\'t something of a clone of Ward who lived a different life. That is not the case with Fitz. Framework!Fitz and real-Fitz are the same person, and the proof lies in the fact that if Framework!Fitz dies, real-Fitz dies. Why? Because they\'re the same person, only acting differently because of different memories.

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> First of all, the theme for Ward's story is

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> First of all, the theme for Ward\'s story is \"just because you claim to have a bad life does not give you justification for evil actions\". The theme during the Framework arc is \"memories can make someone a different person\". They are not contradictory.

That\'s not where the contradiction. The problem is that the protagonists and the story argued against Ward, saying that your free-will is the only relevant thing when making your choices, and that the life you lived is irrelevant to the choices you make and the actions you take, and the person you become. But in the Framework arc, when Fitz, one of their own, has his memories altered but nonetheless still retains his free-will, and yet still does evil things out of his own choosing, the protagonists and the story argue that Fitz can\'t be held accountable for his actions because he had memories of a bad life, which led to him doing those bad things, all the while ignoring that Fitz still had free-will and was in complete control of his actions. Those two statements and stances are contradictory.

> However, being a theme does not have anything to do with how the protagonists treat Fitz. Framework!Fitz\'s backstory is borderline non existent (only that his dad issues were fixed) and his actual relationship with his father is what\'s focused on. The protagonists never use his backstory as justification, but rather the fact that he\'s not the same person, and that the real Fitz is in fact redeemable. Ward never let himself be redeemed and never repented.

The protagonists and the story argued that Fitz wasn\'t to blame or be held accountable for his actions because he had his memories of his life altered, while ignoring that he still had free-will, which is the direct opposite of what they argued with Ward, which was that the life you live and the memories you have of it are irrelevant; the only thing that matters when judging someone for their actions is their free-will. That is what the protagonists and the story had always previously argued, yet are now switching to the life you live and the memories you have of it should be taken into account when judging someone for their actions, because they do play a role. This is exemplified by Ghost Rider himself, who, when looking at Fitz, says that Fitz is not at fault and shouldn\'t be held accountable, despite Fitz having free-will when he did the things he did. This is a direct contradiction to the story\'s and the protagonists\' previous statement free-will, and free-will alone is the only thing that matters when making a choice, not your life or the memories you have of it, and that free-will is enough of a reason to hold people accountable for their actions.

> Maybe we should get a mod, because I\'m not sure we are going to get anywhere.

Agreed. I\'ll get a mod.

Discussion History Main / ProtagonistCenteredMorality