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That's not the point. The point the story makes is that, even if Ward wanted to help them, which he was trying to do while captive by SHIELD, as he was still passing them information, the team stated very clearly that no matter what, even if he was sorry, they weren't going to forgive him because he had a choice, and they don't care what his life circumstances were, and where planning on getting rid of him, one way or another, after all was said and done. Likewise, Fitz, even if he had his entire life and all of his memories rewritten, still had a choice to not kill Agnes or Mace, and still chose to do it, and the protagonists are now saying that it not his fault because he was tricked into believing he had a bad life, while ignoring that Fitz did have the ability to choose.
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That\'s not the point. The point the story makes is that, even if Ward wanted to help them, which he was trying to do while captive by SHIELD, as he was still passing them information, the team stated very clearly that no matter what, even if he was sorry, they weren\'t going to forgive him because he had a choice, and they don\'t care what his life circumstances were, and where planning on getting rid of him, one way or another, after all was said and done. Likewise, Fitz, even if he had his entire life and all of his memories rewritten, still had a choice to not kill Agnes or Mace, and still chose to do it, and the protagonists are now saying that it not his fault because he was tricked into believing he had a bad life, while ignoring that Fitz did have the ability to choose.
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\"As for Simmons actions she was dealing with basically an advance NPC. One that did not have an option or choices like Ward. But made as is to fit a narrative. So the trope does not apply. Also Ward never actively helped them. In Season 2 he tried to manipulate Daisy to free him. Escaped from a prison transport enroute to be punished for actual crimes he commuted. He then captured Bakshi as if to help them , then basically stole him back when it was convenient for him. He never admitted any wrong doing, or apologised so why would the Team treat him any different? No apology, never really helped them, and the one time they thought he was trying to help Kara he used her to kidnap and torture Bobbi.\"
Yeah, and that is why Ward was treated as a villain. FrameworkWard is a construct of Ward would have turned out like if he hadn\'t met Garrett. And Ward did try to apologize (whether genuine or not) to the team why on the Bus for one last mission together, and they made it clear that they were never going to forgive him.
And even if FrameworkWard was an NPC (debatable), he is still an NPC which did no wrong to team Coulson and could have saved Agnes, but chose to listen to Simmons and give her a chance and show Fitz mercy, only for it to cost Agnes her life, and is still treated like shit by Simmons, despite all of it, and we\'re supposed to sympathize with Simmons in all this.
@SatoshiBakura
\"Hell, they actually gave Ward a chance after the HYDRA mission, and he went out of his way to completely wreck his chance at redemption, even though it was inconvenient for him. So no, Ward never attempted redemption. because if he did he would go out of his way to stab his former teammates in the back again.\"
You mean to inject FakeMemories into Ward themselves? If you honestly believe that FakeMemories are brainwashing, then what team Coulson was advocating was brainwashing their enemies, themselves. That doesn\'t really sound like a chance at redemption.
\"And yes, getting your memories replaced, especially against your own will, counts as brainwashing. And considering how far back those memories went, it turned him into a different character. Framework!Fitz isn\'t redeemable, but Real!Fitz is. And Real!Fitz could still be saved. Ward could not.\"
No, no it doesn\'t, and no, Fitz was still the same person, just with a different attitude because of a different, even if imaginary, life. The proof is that if FrameworkFitz died, \"real\" Fitz would also have died. And since the team argues life circumstances don\'t matter, only choices do, they can\'t say Fitz isn\'t accountable for because his imaginary life circumstances compelled him to do evil.
Again, I state, you cannot literally say \"We all have traumatic lives and it didn\'t turn us into psychopaths. You\'re a bad person because you choose to do bad things, regardless of your life circumstances\", but then, when one of your friends does evil things because he is put in an even more traumatic life (even if an imaginary one) say \"well, you can\'t be held accountable because of the life circumstances you thought you lived\", while ignoring that he still had freewill and he chose, of his own freewill, to do all the evil things he did. It\'s literally MoralDissonance that benefits them. And even if Fitz could still \"be saved\", he still chose, of his own freewill, regardless of life circumstances (which is what the protagonists had always argued before) to kill Agnes and Mace. By the standard of the protagonist and the story, Fitz is still responsible because he made a choice to kill, regardless of the life he had imagined he lived.
\"If Fitz came out of the Framework and was still his Framework self, then maybe I could see where you are coming from. If Fitz still remembered the real world while in the Framework, but still evil, then I would see where you are coming from. But that\'s not what happens. Fitz is different. But Framework!Fitz is gone after he awakens in the real world. That personality is completely gone, and Fitz genuinely regrets what he has done. Ward does not.\"
Even if Fitz regretted it, he still did it and the story says he shouldn\'t be held accountable, whereas past villains, such as Cal and Ward, even if they did regret their actions, were still held accountable and faced some sort of consequence, such as Cal with his own FakeMemories, courtesy of SHIELD, and Ward (whether he regretted it or not) being made clear that he was not forgiven and that he was no longer welcome, not to mention that this was only after they needed him for a mission, whereas before they tried to kill him mutliple times.
Arguing that Fitz can\'t be held accountable is like if there was a case where a boy was kidnapped, and the kidnapper, after years, convinces the kid that it is ok to kill people who abused him. As such, the kid eventually believes it, and returns home, and kills his parents, who abused him. The judge in that case later says \"I don\'t care if you were abused or not, or kidnapped or not. I don\'t care what the situation was, you had a choice, and you chose to murder two people.\" and thus gives the kid the death penalty.
Later on, when the judge\'s own son develops amnesia, a person convinces the judge\'s son that they\'re brothers, and says, \"Hey, our parents abused us and we were planning on killing them as revenge.\" The judge\'s son buys the story, and goes on to kill the two people he thought were his parents, only to regain his real memories afterward. That very same judge cannot now argue \"Well, you have to take into account the situation my son found himself in, having lost his memories and being manipulated.\" while ignoring that he had freewill, which he used as the standard on which to give someone in a similar position and motivation, the death penalty, and be portrayed as justified both times.
Yeah, and that is why Ward was treated as a villain. FrameworkWard is a construct of Ward would have turned out like if he hadn\'t met Garrett. And Ward did try to apologize (whether genuine or not) to the team why on the Bus for one last mission together, and they made it clear that they were never going to forgive him.
And even if FrameworkWard was an NPC (debatable), he is still an NPC which did no wrong to team Coulson and could have saved Agnes, but chose to listen to Simmons and give her a chance and show Fitz mercy, only for it to cost Agnes her life, and is still treated like shit by Simmons, despite all of it, and we\'re supposed to sympathize with Simmons in all this.
@SatoshiBakura
\"Hell, they actually gave Ward a chance after the HYDRA mission, and he went out of his way to completely wreck his chance at redemption, even though it was inconvenient for him. So no, Ward never attempted redemption. because if he did he would go out of his way to stab his former teammates in the back again.\"
You mean to inject FakeMemories into Ward themselves? If you honestly believe that FakeMemories are brainwashing, then what team Coulson was advocating was brainwashing their enemies, themselves. That doesn\'t really sound like a chance at redemption.
\"And yes, getting your memories replaced, especially against your own will, counts as brainwashing. And considering how far back those memories went, it turned him into a different character. Framework!Fitz isn\'t redeemable, but Real!Fitz is. And Real!Fitz could still be saved. Ward could not.\"
No, no it doesn\'t, and no, Fitz was still the same person, just with a different attitude because of a different, even if imaginary, life. The proof is that if FrameworkFitz died, \"real\" Fitz would also have died. And since the team argues life circumstances don\'t matter, only choices do, they can\'t say Fitz isn\'t accountable for because his imaginary life circumstances compelled him to do evil.
Again, I state, you cannot literally say \"We all have traumatic lives and it didn\'t turn us into psychopaths. You\'re a bad person because you choose to do bad things, regardless of your life circumstances\", but then, when one of your friends does evil things because he is put in an even more traumatic life (even if an imaginary one) say \"well, you can\'t be held accountable because of the life circumstances you thought you lived\", while ignoring that he still had freewill and he chose, of his own freewill, to do all the evil things he did. It\'s literally MoralDissonance that benefits them. And even if Fitz could still \"be saved\", he still chose, of his own freewill, regardless of life circumstances (which is what the protagonists had always argued before) to kill Agnes and Mace. By the standard of the protagonist and the story, Fitz is still responsible because he made a choice to kill, regardless of the life he had imagined he lived.
\"If Fitz came out of the Framework and was still his Framework self, then maybe I could see where you are coming from. If Fitz still remembered the real world while in the Framework, but still evil, then I would see where you are coming from. But that\'s not what happens. Fitz is different. But Framework!Fitz is gone after he awakens in the real world. That personality is completely gone, and Fitz genuinely regrets what he has done. Ward does not.\"
Even if Fitz regretted it, he still did it and the story says he shouldn\'t be held accountable, whereas past villains, such as Cal and Ward, even if they did regret their actions, were still held accountable and faced some sort of consequence, such as Cal with his own FakeMemories, courtesy of SHIELD, and Ward (whether he regretted it or not) being made clear that he was not forgiven and that he was no longer welcome, not to mention that this was only after they needed him for a mission, whereas before they tried to kill him mutliple times.
Arguing that Fitz can\'t be held accountable is like if there was a case where a boy was kidnapped, and the kidnapper, after years, convinces the kid that it is ok to kill people who abused him. As such, the kid eventually believes it, and returns home, and kills his parents, who abused him. The judge in that case later says \"I don\'t care if you were abused or not, or kidnapped or not. I don\'t care what the situation was, you had a choice, and you chose to murder two people.\" and thus gives the kid the death penalty.
Later on, when the judge\'s own son develops amnesia, a person convinces the judge\'s son that they\'re brothers, and says, \"Hey, our parents abused us and we were planning on killing them as revenge.\" The judge\'s son buys the story, and goes on to kill the two people he thought were his parents, only to regain his real memories afterward. That very same judge cannot now argue \"Well, you have to take into account the situation my son found himself in, having lost his memories and being manipulated.\" while ignoring that he had freewill, which he used as the standard on which to give someone in a similar position and motivation, the death penalty, and be portrayed as justified both times.
