Avatar (James Cameron film)

I can agree with that.

Thinking about it, Star Wars is also pretty derivative but doesn't get nowhere the the same derision as Avatar.

My guess is that, compared to Avatar, Star Wars borrowed from so many sources that it doubled back an became original.

What I think is weird about all the talk about how unoriginal Avatar is is that people keep naming the same few things it supposedly ripped off: Pocahontas, Ferngully, Dances with Wolves, etc., as though the tropes Avatar and those films used haven't been used by countless other things too.

Edited by MDLuder on Feb 10th 2023 at 9:37:04 AM

Those movies are probably just the most popular, so they get mentioned more.

the public dosent often know what source star wars in general so it was easier to see as the original in a sense, many can pierce Avatar influence a mile away.

Yeah The Hidden Fortress wasn't exactly a mainstream cinematic blockbuster in the west.

I can't really find fault with Avatar being influenced by other stuff but "Blue Ferngully" is just inherently funny to say.

No just that, vader scene starting to walk at the end of episode 3 was inspired by frankenstein and various aliens come from old pulp aventures and in a way that genre have become a sort of "stuff old people like" that ether you grampa or father saw or you watch as movie fan.

For many avatar dosent feel inspired more than "copy" which usually a useless definition but here we are

Edited by unknowing on Feb 11th 2023 at 1:39:23 PM

I finally got around to watching the movie. About half-way through I had a series of personal epiphanies that made me not only re-evaluate the first movie but reconsider certain methods of critiquing movies.

First was realizing the movie did not have an excess of plot, but just took its' time with everything. Not every scene needed to be there but it had an attitude trying to make sure every scene was carefully constructed and intricately detailed. Every movie is basically a series of conversations and it feels like the filmmakers obsessed over every, single, detail. I felt a similar way watching Zack Snyders Justice League, where it threw out all established conceptions of populist story construction and pacing and we are just watching and listening to an orchestra where every instrument gets a small solo bit. Who cares if the climax is 45 minutes long or that we are given a ten-minute-long depiction of a whale hunt, we are along for the ride.

The thing too when the first Avatar came out I felt it was too obsessed with its own visuals while producing a fairly dry main narrative, but I got that the point of the movie was more about portraying the world of Pandora than silly things like plot. Once this movie got to the Water Tribe and depicted the subtle biological differences between the forest Na'vi and the water Na'vi, I realized that it is exceptionally rare to have someone like Cameron throw all the money in the world at a project like this and refuse to quit until it is done right. Most blockbusters are very sloppily filmed outside of the big effects sequences, even then often feel done as cheaply as possible while driving VFX shops out of business by underpaying them. That's when I felt like maybe I was too hard on the first film and should better respect it for the spectacle because that still takes real artistry to pull off as well as they did.

As for a more traditional review, I do feel this film is stronger for focusing more on the emotional undercurrent and more natural interactions between the characters. More is said through less dialogue and narration. The ocean environment I think too is a much cleaner visual compared to how busy and unfocused the forest is. I do think it carries over some of the same weaknesses where the villains are cartoonishly evil even if they have fairly well drawn personalities. Other issues seem to be more that this is a Movie Multipack and we will follow up on other plot points, like Kiri's unique origin and the deeper infrastructure of the colonization project. The last half hour of the movie felt like a Sully family action sequence rather than making any sort of headway on the bigger picture.

With that last action scene in mind did anyone else get the sense that Cameron really wanted to remake Titanic?

You could say that again, hence explaining why it dragged the ending to unnecessary degrees.

I finally got around to watching the first Avatar film after many years of people telling me that it's amazing and I really should watch it. I've never really heard any spoilers about it, so I actually had no idea what the film was even about before going into it. The only thing I knew was that everyone raved about the visuals and special effects.

I felt very uncomfortable throughout the entire film because it reeked of "white man saviour", and felt like the creators had taken all the worst elements of Dances with Wolves and amplified them; I definitely wasn't a fan of the main character's ability to "out-native the natives", especially in only 3 months. The visuals, however, were much better than I was expecting for a film of this age. The world-building element was very good; speaking as someone who had to study bioluminescene as part of their degree, my shrivelled old heart really enjoyed the film's excessive light-spam. That said, the special effects did fail in a couple of places (close-ups of the tree gave away how it was being lit in one or two places).

I haven't watched the second film yet. I know even less about it than I did about the first film. To summarise, I'd have to say this film had very little plot, a very problematic story concept, but good visuals and world-building. Mixed bag, overall.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 10th 2023 at 10:27:24 AM

While I could discuss on how I disagree this wiki saying The Way of Water is considered an Even Better Sequel (positive opinions yes, but hardly seen people prefer the sequel, with particular criticism on the abusive length), just wanted to say that somehow 2022 had three things with Na'Vi, the actual Avatar 2, Babylon and 'WeCrashed (Cameron, there's still time to put Anne Hathaway in one one of the sequels...).

With The Way of Water, that relied more on the visuals to tell the story—so in that case, the conventions of the plot weren't that big a problem. The first one acted like this big grand epic that no one had ever seen before and while visually it worked definitely, it suffered for how much of an old story it had though. That said, while I don't have the love for it now that others do, I think that the first Avatar as a technical marvel for its time works very well in the way that the second one as a technical marvel of its time is too.

Yeah, the Even Better Sequel entry for TWOW is skeptical. I certainly have seen people prefer it to the first one, but not that many.

If anything, History Repeats because the film has yet again fallen into Mainstream Obscurity and the visuals are the only thing people talk about, despite most people agreeing the story and characters are better developed than the first.

Gonna be a matter of perspective certainly.

Anyway footage from kevduit abiut the upcoming game. It is gorgeous. Great looking graphics, decent combat. It looks like it might actually be pretty good. The ability to shoot while flying is great looking.

Link

Once I've seen the sequel a second time, I'll be able to better compare it to the first one.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 1st 2023 at 11:41:59 AM

Honestly, I feel bad for having to remove the Even Better Sequel entry from The Way of Water cause I really wanted to believe most people thought it was better than the first. A man can dream.

Right now I think it is. Is that just me though?

That said, I admit I'm not definitive on that opinion though.

There are absolutely a lot of people that consider The Way of Water an improvement over the first.

It's just that, much like with the first movie, the talk died out relatively quickly.

This thread is imo not a good metric to judge these movies, because tropers have been critical of the lack of originality from the onset.

Like I said, the second one could at least get away with it because of the expectation the first one set.

I personally think it's a better film overall but it's comparing apples to a slightly better apple and wouldn't bother wasting time arguing for Even Better Sequel, because that trope is supposed to be more "first work was good with flaws, second work is just as good but without the same flaws." If the arguments go down the path of a 5% difference in RT score and similar Audience Scores the point of the trope is getting lost. Contested Sequel is probably a better example considering the discussion being had.

Considering both movies were nominated for Best Picture, it goes to show.

…Somehow, I suspect these films will be safe from any anti-wokeness or anti-messaging mandates from the Disney brass, but how do you think the budget’s gonna be affected?

If Disney comes to James Cameron about toning down the budget, he'll probably just tell them to fuck off.

And considering that, for reasons entirely beyond my comprehension, these movies make bank, they'll probably leave him alone.

Edited by lbssb on Nov 30th 2023 at 10:01:20 AM

As I said, very recognizable brand now and back then, in addition to the innovations in moviemaking, a very easy-to-follow story too. Too easy though obviously.