Standardizing Alphabetization Order

I'm thinking it'd probably be useful to have an administrivia page that tells people how we alphabetize things around here. The "don't alphabetize on a/the" rule is a given (and would probably account for 90% of the reason for looking at it), but there are a couple other things where differing conventions exist:

• Spaces—do they come first in the alphabet or are they just ignored? For example, I would put I Need a Freaking Drink before Indy Ploy, but some people put it after.
• Foreign equivalents of "a" and "the"—are they also ignored? For example, I think La Résistance goes under R; some people put it under L.

Interesting, I thought ignoring the spaces was a given. This is the first I've heard of doing otherwise. La Résistance I would personally list under R, but I understand that's debatable.

Interesting. I always thought that ignoring the spaces was a mistake and have been correcting it as such.

edited 31st May '10 1:34:27 AM by Ironeye

I didn't mean to sound haughty, I just really thought that was how everyone did it.

I didn't mean to sound sarcastic, I just thought that's how everyone did it. Blast, I did it again!

Anyway, a quick search gives that both can be considered correct, so we really just need to pick one.

Also, I'm going to change the thread title to get this more attention.

edited 31st May '10 2:49:11 AM by Ironeye

I always thought spaces should be ignored, but I don't really care enough to correct examples when I see them.

When we select lists of titles from the database, the sort order 'ignores' internal spaces. Mainly because they aren't there. We store the titles in their wikiword state. For overall consistency, then, the preferred method would be 'ignore internal spaces.'

For overall consistency, then, the preferred method would be 'ignore internal spaces.'

Fair enough.

Does anyone want to argue in favor of alphabetizing on "La"?

edited 31st May '10 9:56:42 AM by Micah

You don't do it in french either. Le and La are like The

Yes, that would be the argument against alphabetizing on "la", which I agree with. I just want to make sure it's uncontroversial...

I know there's also been some issues with titles that begin with THE. I'm pretty sure that The Dragon would go under D because using THE is a simple declaration that can be taken away from the title.

How To Alphabetize Things.

Anyone want to complain about anything before I start linking it to stuff?

I wasn't aware this was something that was commonly misunderstood. :-) A mention of or wick to the different types of example sorting would be useful.

I disagree strongly with "Ignore foreign articles". La Résistance may technically translate as 'The Resistance', but to many people, it's a phrase, not a word and an article. I know that I wouldn't look for it under 'Resistance, La'. By the same token a page on Vincent Van Gogh should not be alphabetised as Gogh, Vincent Van and Leonardo Da Vinci shouldn't be under Vinci, Leonardo Da.

You might also want to add something saying not to alphabetize examples on trope pages. It makes it hard to see what's been added at the bottom.

I'm in favour of keeping spaces, on the basis that when you read it on the works pages or indexes, it looks like the letter by itself. I don't think the way the wiki software works* should count much, since it also doesn't distinguish between A and The— A Date With Rosie Palms comes before Data Vampires. If we make an exception for one, surely we can for the other.

*Say that three times fast.

I'm also pretty sure things like A Day in the Limelight or A God Am I would go under (A) and not (D) because when you take away the word "a" it ceases to be a correct phrase, the "a" changes the meaning of the phrase. For example, "Day In The Limelight" would technically mean that an actual day is given a focus while A Day in the Limelight indicates the day is a time frame. The difference between A God Am I and "God Am I" is like what Phil says in Groundhogs Day, "I'm a god, not the God." This is different from using "the" in front because saying "You're the Dragon" is more or less the same grammatically as "You're a Dragon."

Outside of TV Tropes that might get a weird look, but it means the same thing. It doesn't stop people from using such phrases as "day in the limelighters" but that's part of the informality we talk about so much, not about proper formatting.

" I'm also pretty sure things like A Day In The Limelight or A God Am I would go under (A) and not (D) because when you take away the word "a" it ceases to be a correct phrase"

This is wrong. Standard alphabetization in English is and always has been to ignore articles a, an, and the. Articles do have actual meanings, yes, but that doesn't matter.

If we're using the database's computerized sorting as a base, then that isn't going to ignore the "A"...

Sorry for the necro.

Are we finalized on the "Ignore Spaces" rule here? I ask because I often see indices where the space comes first in the order... Magic Girl being placed before Magical, for example.

Additionally, Web Original is often put before Webcomic in example sections. (I see this one a lot as I'm folderizing pages.)

I just wanted to be sure so that I can start correcting things as I see them.

I was not here for this, but maybe call article "Alphabetization ABC's"?