fails at being neutral: Overused Copycat Character

Overused Copycat Character

I just ran this through the YKTTW, only to be told that yes, we already have this one.

Surprisingly, what I thought to be an interesting phenomenon, that certain Trope Codifier characters codify not just the trope, but the character type's whole portrayal, is troped as a rant about how the creators take us for fools, and the whole thing is more parodied than taken seriously.

And then there is the title, using negative-sounding "copycat" instead of value-neutral "Expy", with "overused" added for good measure.

It has no reason to be negative, mass-expied characters gave us popular and liked characters like Dr. House from Sherlock Holmes, or Mr. Incredible from Superman, or Nagato Yuki from Ayanami Rei.

It looks like the trope was originally mocking a tabletop gamer habit, until it was partially reformatted to... mock every other media as well. What to do? Should we split the two intentions? Or completely reformat it to keep the value neutral and media neutral version, and completely drop the Done Badly in Tabletop Games version?

(BTW, I changed the page image from a JAFAAC)

edited 27th Aug '10 12:58:34 PM by Superior

We faced the issue that it was Tabletop Games specific and decided that it didn't need to be, way back when this was called Drizzt Syndrome.

Every time I see a Night Elf Hunter in World Of Warcraft named "Dryzztt" or "Lêgòllászx" it's this trope.

Your version seems to be the same thing, But Done Well, which is seldom a valid reason to split a trope concept. We might wish to make Overused Copycat Character less antagonistic, since Tropes Are Not Bad, but the basic idea is that overusing an Stock Expy displays a lack of creativity.

edited 27th Aug '10 12:05:26 PM by Fighteer

It seem that trope was created as a Take That! to Drizzt Do'Urden and his copies.

Anyway, yeah, the trope should be made more neutral.

Btw, while the image is very good, it need a caption with links for all these works.

It's also not simply "This character became the basis of a character type". Simply fitting into the same character trope doesn't make a Copycat Character, let alone an Overused Copycat Character. The point of Overused Copycat Charatcer is that the character has become more than a basic template for a character type, and has become a rubber-stamp that can just be plugged in anywhere — House similar to Sherlock Holmes, and parts of his character are based on parts of Holmes', but he's not an Overused Copycat Character — he's not a copy of Holmes — he's a different character who happens to share some characteristics.

edited 27th Aug '10 12:27:34 PM by Madrugada

Maybe we should split it. Not tabletop vs everything else, but fandom vs official. Split things like Holmes being used as an archetype from the tendency of gamers and fic writers to copy the same characters over and over again.

Don't we already have that covered under each of the individual Characterization Tropes and Characters as Device? This idea seems like a metatrope that more or less covers, "all characters concepts that get widely reused".

I could see making it an index, if we don't already have it, something like Public Domain Artifact.

edited 27th Aug '10 12:26:31 PM by Fighteer

Yeah, this reads like two tropes to me.

One is the exact same character, more or less, having the serial numbers vaguely filed off before he (or she) is dropped into multiple works, usually fan-created or part of a role-playing verse. These character have a tendency to be identical in all ways physically and/or legally possible.

The other is a character who becomes iconic enough that they broad strokes of their personality and skills become an archetype unto themselves, almost like part of a Comedia Dell Arte cast. Background, appearance, etc, etc will differ - not every Holmes expy needs a pipe and a deerstalker, to be British, and so forth.

Ahem: Serial Numbers Filed Off. That's about plots, not characters, though. It's also exampleless, for good reason.

edited 27th Aug '10 12:43:20 PM by Fighteer

@ Fighteer: The point is, at least in my version, that the Trope Codifier codifies more than the trope, but so much that its followers could be considered expies.

For example, Ayanami Rei didn't just codify how a girl who is emotionless should fit the Emotionless Girl trope, but as it is pictured, she popularized short blue hair for these girls.

Superman didn't just popularize being The Cape and a Flying Brick, but actually wearing a cape, an initial on your breast, and your underwear on the outside.

edited 27th Aug '10 1:01:02 PM by Superior

How about Master Of Expies for a title of "my" version? (Whether it gets split off or just repurposed)

The term 'expy' doesn't get a lot of traction off the wiki. Something that a first-time reader might get would be better.

^^^Superior, that version is Captain Ersatz, where you aren't just copying the traits of the character, but the actual character, minus the trademarks.

edited 27th Aug '10 1:27:30 PM by Fighteer

Captain Ersatz always bugged me. At what point we decide it is the 'same character'? Where is the point it stop being a Expy and become a Captain Ersatz?

For example, while I know that Nagato Yuki is obviously based in Ayanami Rei (even the name is a pun, for gods sake!) I also know that they are not the same character. They have many differential threads including the personality (Emotionless Girl aside, they are not that similar). This don't stop Yuki from being at Captain Ersatz page.

Anyway, I didn't quite got the difference between the current trope and Superior's porposed trope.

Well, in that case it's incorrectly classified as Captain Ersatz and should be an Expy, although there's also some misuse there in that Expy is technically about authors copying their own characters, not others'. That particular discussion was epic and was one of the first I participated in on the fora, ages ago.

Edit: I checked Expy and it does include copying from other authors. So it's the proper place to put that character. There is a slight gradient, but in general a Captain Ersatz is absolutely blatant, like a Flying Brick in red and blue tights named "Hyperman" who came to Earth as a child from a doomed planet.

edited 27th Aug '10 2:42:05 PM by Fighteer

The thing is, Yuki is blatant. She is an young short and light haired Emotionless Girl who only show emotion to only one person and who was artificially created. Even her name is a pun, Yuki can mean 'snow' and Nagato is a WWII battleship while Rei can mean 'cold' and Ayanami is also a WWII battleship.

It is just that Yuki is also much more then that.

For another example, we have The Sentry. I could describe him as 'blond Superman who didn't came from space and whose colors are yeallow and black' (and, yes, he has an S). The Sentry has also psychological problems, is his own supervillain and ultimatly become a treat for the universe.

Is he an Expy or a Captain Ersatz?

I know that that discussion was long and annoying. I don't really want to revive it (exept, maybe, suggesting Captain Ersatz to be subjective). I just don't like to have a similarly blurry line being used to differentiate another trope.

edited 27th Aug '10 3:08:04 PM by Heatth

The actual point of the trope is that a character is copied enough that people start making fun of how often the character is copied. So the name is needed because a show is actually declaring a character copycat as overused.

The description and examples need cleanup, though.

edited 27th Aug '10 4:32:00 PM by DragonQuestZ

^Well, we still need a trope for the original character then, right? Should we just continue the YKTTW then?

I don't see a need for Trope Codifier But Really Popular. Trope Codifiers have varying amounts of impact.

Until Frank Langella did his version of Dracula, Bela Lugosi's Dracula was the trope Codifier, but he would also fall into this new trope, because there weren't really any tweaks to the character — vampires were Lugosi-style Mittel-European noblemen with dark hair, a widow's peak, and a thick accent, in formal clothing wearing a cape.

But Sherlock Holmes wasn't copied to the same extend — the Great Detective's that followed him used his methods but didn't necessarily look like him. He was still the Trope Codifier.

Are you referring to my comment in the YKTTW? I was just replying to the person who said this is Ur-Example applied to character. I countered it is more close to to Trope Codifier (since Ur-Example means something completely different).

I agree with you, anyway.

I'm referring to the YKTTW in general. It strikes me as Trope Codifier But More So

A Trope Codifier isn't the same as someone who has launched 1000 expys though. Not all of these characters are really tropes. Or they aren't a distinct trope on their own. But they're all still very much the same person. Is there a trope that's Sherlock Holmes and just people who are basically Sherlock Holmes?

Sherlock is the codifier for the Great Detective and a contributing codifier for the Private Detective. But my point is, that any character that's so popular and so definitive as to launch 1000 Expies is already going to be a Codifier.

edited 27th Aug '10 10:52:00 PM by Madrugada

But not all Great Detectives are Sherlock Holmes expies and not all trope codifiers have a large number of expies. They overlap, but they aren't the same thing.

Hang on a moment.

When was Expy broadened to include characters from works by other creators (rather than just previous works by the same creator)?

If that's what it means now, I don't think we need Captain Ersatz. It really seems to be The Same But More.

In a long discussion some time ago, I believe. If I am not mistaken, it was concluded that Expy was so misused that have it meaning broadened would be simpler as everyone was mistaking it for the same thing.