A Song Of Ice And Fire

A nitpick, Goldcloaks didn't have anything to do with the attack on Yoren's recruits, iirc. Ser Amoray Lorch just happened to forage the holdfast they were hiding in by chance.

Edited by dcutter2 on May 8th 2024 at 8:16:32 PM

It's been too long since I've read it, but isn't the reason the battle breaks out (either the first one or the second one in the village when they're actually captured) due to Gendry's presence? Or is it just a coincidence?

They intimidate the Goldcloaks with out a real fight and then the second time in the Holdfast, they are attacked by Amory Lorch who's foraging and looking for Beric/Rebels. Since Lorch is from Tywin's army he's had no contact with King's Landing/Goldcloaks.

The show might have linked the two events more closely? But in the books it's two separate incidents. Just the chaos of war fucking them over.

There's the third moment as well after Gendry, Arya and Hot Pie escape the fight at the Holdfast where they're hiding in this village before getting taken by the Lannisters. If I remember correctly, that doesn't link to Gendry as it is just a coincidence, they happen to go to a village the Brotherhood had been and the Lannisters are there trying to torture information out of the villagers about the Brotherhood. The show (understandably) conflated this with the fight at the holdfast which kills Yoren.

I think in the show it is specifically because Lorch has come with a warrant to take Gendry (and Gendry only survives because Arya pretends one of the boys they killed was him). So in the books verse, less would probably have changed if Gendry wasn't there.

Aye, in the books the encounter with the Goldcloaks is a separate from the fight at the holdfast against Ser Amory Lorch.

However, I don't think that Robert being gay will make Cersei like his sexual escapades any more than she does IOTL, so I can see her start a mass murder campaign regardless - remember, she had the serving woman in Casterly Rock sold to a slaver and Barra's mother in King's Landing killed along with Barra and the serving woman's twins. Varys' character doesn't change, either, so I expect him to rescue one or more of said sex partners by making them join Yoren's train, so Arya's storyline will not change overmuch. For that matter, the Mad King is still going to want Robert's head and send the demand to Jon Arryn that actually started the rebellion.

Final thoughts: How does this POV structure look like for the battle of ice in TWOW? "As for POV structure, I can imagine Theon I (the released chapter), Asha I (battle of Ice), Bran (Stannis with Theon at the weirwood tree), Theon II (seizure of Winterfell, Ramsay's death) and Asha II (Theon's death, dispositions after Winterfell)" as I posted elsewhere.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on May 9th 2024 at 4:31:51 PM

Trailer for House of the Dragon, season two:

The House of the Dragon thread is here, for the curious. eta: While paging through that thread, noted this comment by Martin that he did consider once to make the Targaryens black, noting also the problems that would stem from it.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on May 16th 2024 at 10:57:29 AM

Pardon the doublepost, but I just saw a theory that the crypts of Winterfell are part of a project initiated by the early Starks to make a wight army. Seeing as Coldhands (and Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart) demonstrates that not only the Others can make such armies, and wizards in ASOIAF are known for putting magic to practical use.

Maybe the show took the Battle in the Crypts (during the Long Night, when Sansa and Tyrion have to fight thr wrigts) from a plan Martin had for them, like you suggested? Maybe magic is why a lot of those corpses hadn't fully decomposed?

The starks secretly being necromancers and raising an army of undead is a fascinating theory

Though it's worth noting that not all of the remains stored in the tomb are full corpses. In Ned's case, his bones were entombed there.

It does beg the question why the Stark ancestors who still believed in Others and wights didn't set a tradition of cremating their dead.

Edited by M84 on May 24th 2024 at 3:27:06 AM

Actually, Ned's bones haven't gotten to Winterfell yet - Barbrey Dustin says that they disappeared on the way there and that she won't let them go to Winterfell. Probably stuck in the Neck at Howland Reed.

Maybe the show took the Battle in the Crypts (during the Long Night, when Sansa and Tyrion have to fight thr wrigts) from a plan Martin had for them, like you suggested?

That would make a fair bit of sense, and it wouldn't be the first time that the show did take a probably-in-the-book element and turned it into something else. Although I strongly suspect that the Others and their necromancy white mists cannot cross the walls of Winterfell, so the only powers that might resurrect them are R'hllor and Bran/Bloodraven.

As for why so many of the corpses are as well preserved as they are, it's because the crypts are cold enough to basically be a fridge. For bodies.

While I doubt they were planning to make wights of their own, it's clear the Starks of the past did have knowledge of magic in general. They built and enchanted the Wall, and the Stark line produces greenseers and wargs.

As for R'hllor, I doubt even the Red Priests and Witches have the power to raise people who were dead as long as most of the crypt's residents. Beric and Catelyn were both resurrected when their bodies were relatively "fresh", and even then they didn't come back 100%.

Edited by M84 on May 23rd 2024 at 6:48:02 PM

Catelyn's body was specifically said by Thoros to be too late which is why Beric did it and died trying instead and they got... Stoneheart from it.

I'm so excited to see how Stoneheart is used in the next book, Catelyn is one of my favourite characters and Stoneheart is fascinating. I hope they make it clear that being revived isn't what made her into the hateful, murdering figure she now is, her mind is still in tact, but the pain of losing Robb and (as far as she knows) the rest of her family that has maddened her.

I mean, it's been stated that being brought back does diminish you.

Beric becomes less of himself every time he's brought back and the way this kind of resurrection works likely plays some role in how Stoneheart turned out (combined with Catelyn experiencing a mental breakdown right followed by a gruesome death).

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on May 23rd 2024 at 2:46:03 PM

, I think it's half a dozen of one, six of the other tbh.

The resurrection process does do something to you but also Beric have his head smashed in and still deformed probably doesn't do anything good for his memory either.

Stoneheart's obsessions are probably do with the resurrection process fixing her as she was at the moment of death, completely cracked with despair.

Honestly makes me wonder what's Jon gonna be like if/when he's brought back.

zombie jon wants to eat yo brainzzz!

God, he was moody from the start, became moodier after the whole "Kill the Boy" speech. Will zombie Jon reach the apex of moodiness?

Or, maybe his brain will be scrambled and make him into a really friendly guy. Who knows?

I admit I'm an outlier who would actually have been okay with Jon dying permanently.

Keep up that Ned Stark, Rob Stark spirit.

Ned's death really isn't all that surprising when you remember that the Stark kids are the actual "heroes." Of course their dad dies, it just happened a bit later in the story than usual.

That said, when Jon comes back, I could see him bringing a bit of Ghost back with him, and maybe leaves some of himself behind in Ghost.

I think it'd be cool if a Jon chapter actually is titled "Ghost" before he is resurrected. It'd work on multiple levels.

It's retroactively obvious now, but in the first book, Ned seems to be the protagonist. The blurb (at least of the copy I had) focuses on him (briefly bringing up Viserys), most of the other main characters are related to him, and there is an entire segment (his imprisonment) where it looks like he'll be killed but then he's given a last minute respite.

The first book does this a lot: it seems like Viserys will be a major villain (just told from the perspective of his sister), then dies fairly early on, then it seems like Drogo will be a major villain, but then he dies as well. Instead it's Danaery's story, just as instead of the Westeros Plotline being Ned's story, it's (mostly) his children's.

IIRC, Ned mentions that the swords placed on the statues are meant to keep the restless dead in their tombs. He even notes that the oldest swords have rusted to nothing, and wonders whether that means those spirits are free to roam the castle.

There's also the whole thing with Dany's child, "the Stallion that Mounts the World". Specifically aborted magically by the sheep-herder lady to keep that future from coming true because of the suffering it would bring.