During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Reposting what I said earlier:
The whole reason he and others were at Ohara was to remove the evidence of something that could destabilize centuries of world politics. He was actually right, but missed the actual target.
So he killed a bunch of civilians someone of equal rank had promised to spare, and said equal rank was horrified over it. And the archaeologists weren't a problem until the government made them one.
The World Government defines "pregnant woman who was potentially in contact with Gold Roger before his death" as 'potentially destabilizing threat,' so I'm not really inclined to take Akainu's utterly warped view on the subject
Brutally murders" can also be read as executed military deserters in a time of war when they knew their mission entailed the fate of the future. Coby - not only a possible deserter, but an outright seditious one going against direct orders
The Marines aren't a bunch of Lawful Stupid lunatics. Generally speaking, criminals are supposed to get trials, not summary murder. And these guys weren't fleeing the service as a whole, they were getting clear of a battle they couldn't possibly have made a difference in. Coby's point was the fight was over. There was no reason to press on when Whitebeard was dead and all it was doing was creating more casualties. And 'fate of the future?' Whitebeard was one of the most benevolent pirates out there and killing him did way more harm than good with the power vacuums it created, and how it destabilized nations under his protection.
People who dislike Akainu on the list tend to ignore how there are multiple marines who've been shown to be far more reasonable. Oh, and remember when Garp outright threatened to murder Akainu for killing Ace and said he had to be restrained from doing so? Or when he took a dive fighting a pirate who was trying to rescue a pirate? Or all the times Garp has played fast and loose with orders?
The government wanted Akainu to have the position, but Aokiji challenged him because of their personally conflicting views. After their rough but fairly even fight, Akainu won and let Aokiji leave, because their history and conflict didn't merit killing
We have no idea why he spared him except second hand info. Hence the 'wait and see.'
The idea of Protagonist-Centered Morality is absolutely false. Luffy flat out admits the Marines are the good guys in most cases and harbors zero animosity towards the majority of them. We aren't seeing Akainu as a bad guy because he's Mr. dastardly to the heroes, he's a bad guy because he's a brutal fascist who does evil things to everyone in the name of order and propping up a corrupt oligarchy. Characters like Smoker were antagonists on the marine's side long, long before Akainu was, and yet he is treated as an honorable man who happens to work for the marines. Even Sengoku, himself no saint, is a better human being.
I have addressed the discrepancy multiple times. Kuzan, when a Vice Admiral, gave a promise that refugees were to be spared. Sakazuki/Akainu had them blown up with no remorse. Smoker routinely shows care to his subordinates and civilians, and even respect to his enemies. Akainu does not.
And once again, there is no known law of "execute deserters via the most hideous means on the spot." One usually gets a trial. And Coby, despite his very public outburst, had no legal repercussion. Akainu tried to kill him solely out of irritation. And yes, these would be eclipsed, if you conveniently left out him blowing up a bunch of civilians on a lark of "possible threat to ORDER" when his own side had already promised them safe passage.
Sure, his qualification is debatable. And we've had that debate. Multiple times now. Each time, he got a net vote of 'keep.' This is like the fifth or sixth it's come up. You'll also note I never mentioned Ace in my posts here, because that would be Protagonist-Centered Morality. Ohara is not. One's job description to 'attack criminals' doesn't really really help when one just redefines criminals till the definition is more or less meaningless.
That's really the thing about Akainu. he takes his legitimate job and stretches it to the point where he can vaporize hundreds of innocent people without batting an eye because a potential threat (who' not even a deadly criminal, but a possible scholar who knows inconvenient things to the government) might, MIGHT be on board. after his own side and a man of equal standing to him promised to spare them. He doesn't kill Jewlery Bonney because she was apprehended and would be executed later. We know Aokiji, himself a far more reasonable person, found the idea of Sakazuki becoming the leader intolerable to the point he challenged him to a fight.
I'm not appreciating the strawman of "you think he's a complete monster because he's a meanie" it's "He's a Complete Monster because he's a tyrannical fascist propping up a corrupt government and killing a bunch of innocent people to do so" I have also no clue why one would think 'Lightyflame' is necessary this conversation.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You make some excellent points, but I still think the fact that many other people more reasonable than Sakazuki have just as much of a hand if not more in propping up said corrupt oligarchy than he does should be considered. Sengoku, as mentioned, is implied to have okayed both Ohara and the "massacre of the innocents." Sympathetic WG employees like Garp, Magellan, and CP9 presumably at least know of if not condone such things. Sakazuki does more stuff directly, but in the giant morass of people who order, approve of, and look the other way toward the war crimes of him and others, I'm concerned he doesn't stand out.
I have to point, though, that it's not just the propping it up. Akainu is more violent than them as well. Not everyone involved in an evil regime is an evil person by definition, but even the good men who do nothing can be less vile than a CM on a personal evil level
however, as I've been pointing out a lot: Akainu has done more. When Aokiji wanted the refugees spared, Akainu blew them to kingdom come. Garp protects and looks after Coby while Akainu was set to murder him for being an irritation. Nothing indicates that Coby was even punished after that, or that Sengoku or the other Vice Admirals wanted him harmed.
I also have a hard time believing Aokiji would do what Akainu did to soldiers who were just scared. he didn't kill them for breaking laws, but because he felt their actions were shameful. It was also utterly pointless.
If all Akainu did was trying to kill Ace and Pirates, then sure. But he does more. Way more.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Also fair points. I'll back off for now, but WLW may still want to debate if and when he comes back here.
One last thought, though: do you think a good case could be made that Lucci is even more of a fanatic than Sakazuki? As I understand his philosophy, it's basically Sakazuki's with social darwinism mixed in.
Not an argument against Sakasuki per se, nor one for including Lucci (he cares about his comrades, minus Spandam, and helped them escape once they learned they were to be quietly executed by the WG and the Enies Lobby debacle pinned on them), but it is interesting in that, from a certain interpretation, Sakazuki may not be the biggest zealot at the WG.
edited 31st Mar '14 4:21:56 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
the interpretation I got was that Lucci was more interested in serving the government as it allowed him access to means of legal assassination and license to kill.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Though note that if Lucci was really a social darwinist, he should've turned his squad in for their failure if not executed them himself a la Nero. Hmm...
I think he changed a lot after they saved his life at the end
I am going to stay out of the One Piece debate.
Though I would like to ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Cobb, One-Eye and Degroat.
Also bringing up something I mentioned before, a couple of pages back, I think we should cut Geenral Kincaid from the X-Men Legends YMMV page, because he seems to have a Freudian excuse and love his wife:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/XMenLegends
Kincaid is in both the YMMV and Monster Video game page.
Also I started reading Saga recently and I think there is a character who bears watching. Saga is kinda of Grey-and-Grey Morality story, that deals with a war that has gone for centuries and the series deals with the horrors of war, most of the villains tend to be Anti-Villain types with humanizing qualities. However there is a minor villain named Mama Sun who is an official at a Pleasure Planet and she has bought a young girl and forced her into prostitution. Mama Sun also injected her with a chemical that will kill the girl if she tries to escape. This girl is really the only victim Mama Sun has so far, but that is pretty awful and its stated that the child prostitution and Explosive Leash are standard practice for her. Saga is still ongoing, so I wouldn't add her yet, but she does seem like the most evil character in the series so far.
edited 31st Mar '14 5:19:46 PM by TheOverlord
Role Model
Once again, the fact that Akainu/Sakazuki is portrayed unheroically, compared to heroic characters like Aokiji/Kuzan and Garp, who explicitly fail to do their jobs and have been reprimanded, does not make him a Complete Monster. He can still easily be interpreted as being a Lawful Evil, Knight Templar or Well-Intentioned Extremist without throwing down the Complete Monster label on him and misapplying that trope.
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
I'm going to vote no on that Gundam Build Fighters example, at least for now. It doesn't sound like he's really managed to meet the baseline heinous standard, so irrespective of it being a separate universe, I can't see including him on a list with Gihren and Azrael. If he does something worse later on, he might be a contender.
I've always stayed out of One Piece discussions before. All I'll say here is a) holding pattern for now, and b) WLW, I'm thrilled you want to participate, but there is no reason to be insulting to Lightysnake.
Except that Akainu has far more deplorable crimes. He isn't even fit the Well-Intentioned Extremist trope (he's not making the world better for anyone), and a Complete Monster can be a Knight Templar WLW.
Role Model
I would apologize for being insulting, if someone could please point out to me at what point I was actually being insulting, because I don't see it.
I'm not saying the tropes must be mutually exclusive. I'm saying he does meet that trope, but not necessarily this one. He is striving to make the world better, however. By upholding the current system and combatting pirates and criminals, his intent is to make the world safe from the average citizen, and avoid repeating the conflict that was so bad that a century was wiped from the history books. For that reason, the author has labeled him as embodying "Absolute Justice", as opposed to the Lazy, Dark, or Moral Justice systems seen by other marine characters, and for that reason he is promoted by the government.
edited 31st Mar '14 6:57:42 PM by wanderlustwarrior
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
All I saw was misspelling his handle. I trust that was a mistake?
Role Model
It was a mistake. I'm doing most of this off my phone.
I edited my last post to respond to the troper above me, but AI would also say that the thing about a soldier actually enforcing laws is that they are not necessarily intending to commit "criminal" actions. You might want to use a different word than "crimes".
edited 31st Mar '14 7:00:56 PM by wanderlustwarrior
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Once again, the fact that Akainu/Sakazuki is portrayed unheroically, compared to heroic characters like Aokiji/Kuzan and Garp, who explicitly fail to do their jobs and have been reprimanded, does not make him a Complete Monster. He can still easily be interpreted as being a Lawful Evil, Knight Templar or Well-Intentioned Extremist without throwing down the Complete Monster label on him and misapplying that trope.
See, the issue there? Garp is known as a beloved hero because he helps people. He's a good person in addition to being a marine, he's got an incredible list of deeds, he's got a kind heart under all the gruff bluster and Training from Hell and his family is everything to him. He also has the fact of refusing promotions so he can stay at doing what he likes more. Aokiji is likewise more willing to buck his orders if his justice requires, but he is shown to be ruthless if need be-just ask Saul. However, he doesn't go as far as Akainu.
A man can be a ruthless enforcer for a corrupt government and still be a Complete Monster. Akainu is a Knight Templar and a variant to that that makes a CM in our estimation in the past votes.
What has Akainu done, ever, that is remotely heroic? The man is an utter scourge and terrifies almost everyone who knows him. Again, this isn't viewed through the lens of the heroes. He kills tons of innocent people just on the off chance someone arbitrarily branded 'criminal' for knowing too much is among them.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
About that last part, the thing is I've always interpreted that Akainu genuinely believes he's helping the greater population by doing those things. He's a "kill a million if it'll save a billion" sort, and combine that with World Government kool-aid and an extremely powerful Devil Fruit and you get a very dangerous man indeed.
edited 31st Mar '14 7:13:37 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
If that interpretation is explicitly confirmed and he's shown to care for people, I'll have a different view then. I think he has an image of 'THE STATE' in his head, though, that doesn't necessarily include...well...people
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
I do sort of agree with that, yeah. I don't think he goes out of his way to rack up high body counts, and I'm not saying he's actually helping anyone - quite the opposite, in fact - I think he's just swallowed so much of the Five Elders' garbage that he can't tell the difference anymore.
I think, however, he makes situations worse than if he never got involved at all from what we've seen, and he extends his insane views on order and justice to criminalize people for next to nothing, including 'saying things I don't want to hear.
It's not just punishing criminals. It's expanding the definition of criminal until it loses almost all meaning. he hasn't even show why he wants order, nor any care for the average citizen. He's shown to kill many of the average citizens without anything resembling remorse.
edited 31st Mar '14 7:18:59 PM by Lightysnake
I was looking through the Ogre Battle YMMV entries.
- Complete Monster: Death Master Nybbas Obderhode is a completely fucked up person. When his son Debordes was executed by Barbatos for rebelling, Nybbas made his corpse a guinea pig for his necromancy research, turning him into a walking corpse. While he serves Barbatos, he couldn't care less on who wins just so long he can continue his research about necromancy, with no regards of souls of the dead or living. No wonder his priestly daughter Orias hate him so much... And if you think he's not THAT bad... then his Moral Event Horizon would be him zombifying of Guildus in Neutral route. And if you go to the other route, he zombifies Leonard and Zaebos. The Chaotic route of the PSP remake ramps this Up To Eleven with his treatment to his daughter Cressida. Of most Tactics Ogre villains... Nybbas tops in the 'evil' department.
- Cardinal Barbatos orders the ethnic cleansing of Walsta/Walister and institutes concentration camps such as Baramus / forced slave labor camps such as Balmamusa If that wasn't really the cinch of it, Jenounes' backstory also cements him as one. He ordered the massacre of Oxyones' village on Jenounes' squadron on the claim that they were cultists, but in truth they just stored anti-Barbatos movement and overall innocent. And then there's the fact that he executed Debordes just because he's part of anti-Barbatos movement, enabling Nybbas to do his way with him. And he's still lightweight compared to Nybbas...
- Rhade. Where do you even begin with this guy? All the other villains in the story claim to do their deeds for the good of the kingdom/empire. But this guy does all he does because he can. From the first moment Magnus meets him, even though they're on the same side he condescends to him constantly, despite Magnus having saved his life earlier (Rhade actually complained about Magnus not being fast enough), and then kills an unarmed old man as soon as he leaves the room. Then he punches you out when you try to defend a rebel leader which begins the downfall of Yumil as Rhade's the one who shows him only power can change things. THEN he forces slaves from the west to be drafted into the war by holding their own families hostage, and saying that it's YOUR fault for dragging them into the war! Quite frankly, it feels awesome when you finally get to stick a sword in his gullet (Or see it, depending on your alignment).
Okay, Nybbas is already listed on VG Monsters. The entry for Barbatos outright says he's lightweight compared to Nybbas. Rhade is badly written at the very least.
edited 31st Mar '14 7:21:25 PM by TVRulezAgain
I'll check out the Ogre Battle and Onimusha entries very soon btw.
Role Model
Your response to my post was literally the same logical fallacy.
As for what "heroic" things he has done, it is literally in his job description to uphold the laws and protect the public. However, once again, just because he is not objectively "good" does not make him a complete monster. However, you should consider the introduction of Sakazuki, in chapter 397, pages 10-12. Kuzan himself mentions that "justice" in this series depends on where you stand, while Sakazuki states that the point of the bombardment was to ensure that the laws were uphold and that to not be thorough would render the whole enforcement of the laws pointless.
At this point, we have been arguing in circles, so I'm going to stop here and try to get some work done elsewhere. I do hope others would like to debate at some point tonight, but I'll come back to this later.
edited 31st Mar '14 7:33:21 PM by wanderlustwarrior
The sad, REAL American dichotomy
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
If nothing else this conversation really makes me want to know his backstory. There has to be some reason why someone would be so devoted to "order," right?
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
'''As for what "heroic" things he has done, it is literally in his job description to uphold the laws and protect the public. However, once again, just because he is not objectively "good" does not make him a complete monster. However, you should consider the introduction of Sakazuki, in chapter 397, pages 10-12. Kuzan himself mentions that "justice" in this series depends on where you stand, while Sakazuki states that the point of the bombardment was to ensure that the laws were uphold and that to not be thorough would render the whole enforcement of the laws pointless.
At this point, we have been arguing in circles, so I'm going to stop here and try to get some work done elsewhere. I do hope others would like to debate at some point tonight, but I'll come back to this later.'''
Saying "it's his job" is not a strong argument because 'protecting the people' is precisely what the government fails to do. It actively oppresses them.
And that's the thing: Akainu cares about 'law'...not 'people.' That's a Lawful Evil example of a CM there. He's not in it for the people, regardless of what his job is supposed to be. To Be Lawful Or Be Good is a bit of a theme in the series.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
We have a baseline heinousness standard as well as a relative one. It's why Discord is never getting an entry, for a start. Nine may be unpleasant, but I'm really not sure he clears that baseline.
What's precedent ever done for us?