Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

That's closer to madness than malice.

I'm really reluctant to support Luther as a CM because he has very little in the way of characterization. He pretty much comes off as a generic villain (but NOT a Generic Doomsday Villain) that Tri-Ace wrote just because they realized that they needed a final boss.

edited 29th Mar '14 9:21:20 AM by lrrose

Fair enough. I honestly didn't think he'd get in but I wanted to try out a suggestion for future reference.

I updated my Bill Sikes writeup with more detail about his murder of Nancy. Let me know if it still needs expansion.

• Bill Sikes from Oliver Twist is one of the most vicious characters that Charles Dickens ever created. A brute who beats his dog and uses young Oliver to further his criminal career, his worst act is killing his girlfriend Nancy in cold blood when he thinks she betrayed him. He smashes her face with his pistol and when she begs for mercy, he beats her to death with a club, and keeps beating her when she's already dead. Other criminals fear Sykes and his violent temper and none of the other villains come close to matching him in being an utter bastard.

edited 29th Mar '14 3:36:45 PM by TVRulezAgain

Just italicize (two single quote marks) the title.

edited 29th Mar '14 3:35:33 PM by ACW

I think we need more from Sykes than just beating Nancy to death

Agree with lighty, does Sykes do more because killing Nancy and beating his dog doesn't seem like it's heinous enough.

Don't remember. But I'm listening to Oliver Twist on Youtube to refresh my memory. I also PM'd mlsmithca (who's familiar with the work) to fill us in his crimes.

On the Villains Wiki, all I've read about Sikes is that he beat his dog so severely that it practically had to have stitches. Also, on the wiki, it said that he gave his girlfriend a very gruesome death. It doesn't state what he did to her, since it was so horrible, but it is then that he becomes a monster. There was also the fact that he used Oliver for his plans, but that's beside the point. However, the Villains Wiki doesn't state anything else he did. Also on the wiki, it stated that Bill only murdered his girlfriend when he thought she betrayed him, so wouldn't that be self-defense?

edited 29th Mar '14 7:21:44 PM by AustinDR

Villains wiki Isn't something I trust on its own

What I mean is that the person who added the page clearly knows what happened in the book. By the way, I work for Villains Wiki. Still, doesn't Sikes killing his girlfriend still qualify as self-defense since he though she sold him out? Also, I'm going to ask the admin on Villains Wiki if she can give me a list on Sikes' crimes.

edited 29th Mar '14 7:41:15 PM by AustinDR

I wouldn't call it self-defense. She wasn't attacking him, right?

Still, if that's all, I don't think that one murder is a qualifier. I saw a play of Oliver Twist like a year ago, and I don't remember him doing much else. Maybe the book had more.

And he also has animal abuse under his list of evil deeds. Though abusing an animal, while bad in and of itself, it doesn't make one a Complete Monster. However, I do think that if the murder is very bad on its own, it can make someone a complete monster. Just as long as they did other stuff that backed up that murder.

edited 29th Mar '14 8:12:16 PM by AustinDR

for Sikes. Even though I haven't read Oliver Twist for a while, the description matches my memory.

• Actions are truly heinous by the standards of the story: Check.
• Terribleness played seriously at all times: Check. Evokes fear and revulsion from other villains: Check.
• No redeeming qualities: Even before he kills Nancy he's a bit of a bastard to her. Check.

I do recall reading somewhere on this forum that Sikes tried to kill Charlie Bates, and would have if the authorities hadn't stopped him.

Right, at TV Rulez' behest, I've flipped through my copy of Oliver Twist, and here's what I've managed to find.

For a start, Sikes (please note that it's spelled with an I, not a Y - "Sykes" is his equivalent character in Oliver And Company) commits the only actual murder in the book - the only other crimes committed by the characters (Sikes himself included) are limited to petty theft and burglary. As the current version of the entry says, his chosen method of killing Nancy is to strike her about the face with his pistol (worried that shooting her would attract the attention of the authorities) and then beat her with a club until she is dead, and even beyond. He does also threaten to kill Charley Bates when he's on the run for Nancy's murder, but has to stop halfway through the act when the restless mob on his tail catches up with him. As for his reasoning, Nancy actually doesn't give him up - she gives Monks up for fear of what he would do to Oliver, but refuses all attempts to persuade her to give up Sikes, Fagin, or any of her other associates (mostly because she feels she is no better than they are) - but he jumps to this conclusion after hearing of her secret meeting with Mr. Brownlow and Rose Maylie.

That aside, he beats Nancy quite severely on a regular basis (when she fetches Oliver to be an unwilling and/or unwitting accomplice to Sikes' burglary of Rose Maylie's house, her neck and arms are covered in bruises, and numerous of the scenes in which he appears mention him striking her). When he does take Oliver with him to burgle Rose Maylie's house, he makes it quite clear that he will shoot him if he tries to run or give the game away, pressing a loaded pistol into his temple to ensure that Oliver realises he is serious. And when Oliver tries to alert the people in the house to the burglary and is caught in the crossfire between Sikes and Crackit and the servants in the house itself, Sikes leaves him for dead in a ditch.

He is by far the most brutal character in the book (at least partly because any other character prone to violence comes and goes from the story early on), and Fagin and his associates are all clearly intimidated by him.

Does that mean he qualifies? I don't know, the various reservations expressed about whether or not he meets the general standard of evil exhibited by a typical CM may have something to them, but he's certainly a terrifying character with no redeeming qualities whatever. (He's softened a bit in some of the adaptations, including Oliver!, where he seems to feel something that bears a vague resemblance to love for Nancy - in the book, she loves him but he seems to feel nothing for her, and certainly feels no affection for his dog Bull's Eye.) If there's a CM anywhere in Dickens, Sikes would be it.

I created an "Issues" folder for VG Monsters.

edited 30th Mar '14 5:48:12 AM by ACW

Any other thoughts on Boss Yoshida from Showdown in Little Tokyo? He's received two votes to keep so far.

SPOILERS: I've just come back from the recent Veronica Mars movie and the latest Big Bad might be a keep. The show was last discussed here, where only Mercer was deemed a keep for both meeting the heinous bar and lacking any redeeming traits. Cassidy pushes the heinous standard very high for being both a mass murderer and a rapist, but he failed on redeeming traits for genuinely loving his mom and having a solid Freudian Excuse.

The movie picks up nine years after the show's finale. Cobb, the new villain's crimes are as follows: He and a few classmates were partying on a boat in college, but one of them fell over and accidentally drowned. He then advised the three others (a fourth was unconscious at the time and missed all of it) to dump the corpse and cover it up. He then uses this information to blackmail them all for ten years. Gia Goodman, the girl he lusted after in high school, is forced to have sex with him whenever he wants and live in an apartment without any blinds or curtains so he can ogle her all day. This despite the fact that she was already traumatized for recently having lost her father Woody Goodman in Cassidy's jet explosion after he was revealed to be a pedophile. When the other girl among the ones he blackmailed, pop star Carrie Bishop, breaks down Cobb murders her in her home and uses Gia to frame Carrie's boyfriend Logan Echolls for the murder (it's pointed out that California has the death penalty, so he's knowingly condemming an innocent to death). When Gia finally confesses all of it to Veronica, he snipes Gia through the window without a flicker of remorse or regret. He finally tries to murder Veronica to cover it all up (a lot of the villains also tried that, though).

Cobb never shows any redeeming traits and as far as heinousness goes he has to compete with a mass murderer (who disqualified) and a serial rapist (who qualified). Keeping an already traumatized girl as a Sex Slave for nearly ten years is a unique crime for a villain in this setting however, so coupled with his other wanton murders I think he stacks up to the likes of Cassidy and Mercer. Unlike them he also had much less screentime to establish how bad he is yet he's still as evil as them. I suggest to keep.

edited 30th Mar '14 6:05:04 AM by Morgenthaler

Yeesh, sounds like a very possible keep.

And played by Bill from Freaks And Geeks?

@23365: Sounds like Boss Yoshida counts.

@23427: With that additional information, I lean towards keeping Sikes, since now we have the attempted murder of one child and threatened murder of another, in addition to all of his other nastiness.

@23429: Cobb sounds like a keeper.

edited 30th Mar '14 10:22:09 AM by OccasionalExister

In one point in the Mr. Krabs video Spongebob objected to Mr. Krabs killing the health inspector...he ignored him and continued with the plan anyway...

But is it played seriously enough for the YTP!Mr. Krabs to count? Like I said before, this certain YTP is actually treated more as a horror film and there are hardly any laughs in the poop in question. And besides, there are several YT Ps that are depicted as serious in-universe whenever Cerebus Syndrome is employed in them. So, maybe this version of Krabs can count if we treat it more like a horror film and ignore that it's supposed to be a YouTube Poop. Can you at least give some examples from the video in which most of Krabs's actions are not played for laughs?

edited 30th Mar '14 12:59:09 PM by AustinDR

Still putting a permanent vote, it's just a slippery slope that will take us to bad places.

I find it hard to buy the notion that Youtube Poops could have a Complete Monster. They're nonsensical parodies.

Anyhow, now that mlsmithca filled us in, I'll try again with the Bill Sikes entry.

• Bill Sikes from Oliver Twist is one of the most vicious characters that Charles Dickens ever created. Sikes beats his dog, abuses his girlfriend Nancy, and uses young Oliver to further his criminal career, threatening to shoot him if he gives him away. His worst act is killing Nancy in cold blood when he thinks she betrayed him. He smashes her face with his pistol and when she begs for mercy, he beats her to death with a club, and keeps beating her when she's already dead. He later threatens to kill Charley Bates when he's on the run for Nancy's murder. Other criminals fear Sikes and his violent temper and none of the other villains come close to matching him in being an utter bastard.

edited 30th Mar '14 1:56:57 PM by TVRulezAgain

Good rewrite. Also, if you can think of anything to improve my write up on Damien Thorn, let me know.

Only correction as such is that, again, it's Sikes, not Sykes (you've used the latter spelling in the last sentence).