Averting the "sun-god is good" cliche

Hmm... I must ask, why do the sun and moon deities have celestial bodies and their parents don't? For that matter, what does this mythology think of the stars? (Just curious, mostly)

Hmm... I must ask, why do the sun and moon deities have celestial bodies and their parents don't?

...You're not asking how a humanoid and a sometimes-intangible-mist had a jaguar for a son?

As for an actual answer, the Jaguar/Moon King's appearances are affected by You Cannot Grasp the True Form—and in the case of the White Jaguar, he's so powerful that they literally can't look at him for more than a second or two. He tones it down a lot when he comes down to earth. The Moon King is fragile in god terms, but his true form is still well above a mortal's comprehension and so he also appears as light, albeit much dimmer than his brother.

Their parents aren't celestial bodies because their mother was an attention whore who wanted people to look at her, and their father didn't want anyone to see him while he was going around making people miserable.

For that matter, what does this mythology think of the stars? (Just curious, mostly)

The stars are the people's tears of genuine grief, anguish, or despair. ...Or joy. The Moon King somehow manages to collect them and make them all shiny because he's a god. Normal stars are from normal people, while constellations are the tears shed by heroes and other historically-important people.

I figured that I might as well turn the Sparkling Stream of Tears Up To Eleven.

edited 7th Jun '10 8:45:03 PM by Sharysa

Hmmm... I really like the mythology you have going here. Though... I do think it's a bit... sparse(?) compared to other mythologies. At least as far as I've seen. Are there any other gods in this mythology?

No worries, I've been fleshing out the mythology since I made this thread.

The Moon King has a daughter who personifies the wind and specializes in love and compassion, there's a giant raven goddess who serves as the herald of the gods, and unicorns used to be minor gods before they were Brought Down to Normal (the unicorns in the current timeline are sapient but unable to speak). Dhiyasseh didn't like how the unicorns just let people ride them and actually HELPED them when they got hurt or needed water or something like that, so she took their voices and immortality, but left them sentient and long-lived (50-80 years) just so they could remember she was going easy on them.

It is implied that losing their voices was very painful for the original unicorns, since the current steeds say that "our voices were ripped from our throats."

There's a coming-of-age ritual for the royal family where upon fifteen years old, they go into the forest and bond with a wild unicorn as a symbol of their authority. The royal unicorns can talk to their riders in dreams whenever something bad is about to happen.

If you want any more details about the mythos, feel free to ask.

edited 8th Jun '10 11:17:45 AM by Sharysa

... If the Moon King has a daughter, who is the mother? Of course, this is mythology, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, but I feel like I should ask.

And where does the raven goddess fit in? Like, who's her parents? And how do she and the wind goddess(because you didn't specify if she was or not) interact with the parents and our sun and moon personifications?

What's up with the unicorns? I heard "jaguar" and thought of a Mayincatec society, but then you bring in them and a royal family and suddenly I have a medieval setting in my head...

Also, what's the name of those two ladies? Or what do they go by, anyway?

You mentioned that Dhiyasseh was the "former queen"... so who's the current?

That's about all I can think of for now, so... ^_^;

I probably should have connected my world description to this thread. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=inaqewkr3trs9cfqyouko1z2&page=6#150

RE Royal family: While they are technically royal, the king's actual title translates to "The (First) Person" in a nod to the Incas.

RE Unicorns: The pantheon is worshiped by a tropical island nation, where unicorns are the native magical fauna. The islands have a four-month dry season, which is where the unicorns come in: They can both purify and enchant water. If you drink a cup of enchanted water, you're set for up to a month if necessary.

So, here's the current deity list:

Good gods:
The Moon King: The moon god, whose toned-down form is a sickly Bishōnen. Kind, compassionate, and very frail (for a god), with a Hundred Percent Adoration Rating from the islanders. Also the islanders' guide to the afterlife. Much more likely to be invoked than his brother, for reasons stated below.

The White Jaguar: The sun-god, whose toned-down form is a giant white jaguar. He's the Moon King's brother and staunch, if abrasive protector, but he'll leave you alone as long as you don't try to kill his brother or niece. And by "try to kill," he means "make sudden motions in the general direction of." He is the most physically powerful deity of the islands' pantheon. Despite the islanders' reverence of him, they don't ask him for help unless they specifically need him to plummet down from the sky and maul someone right at that moment.

Ilteyah of the Eastern Wind: The Moon King's daughter, and goddess of love and compassion. Rather sheltered, but nice to be around. Doesn't need nearly as much protection as her father, but good luck telling the Jaguar that. Her mother is the goddess of the sea, and her husband is a trickster god who constantly pushes his luck with her uncle.

Messidoun, the Mother-of-Ravens: The giant raven herald of the gods, and by extension the goddess of communication and travel. Also Ilteyah's maid, and the only non-relative who can talk to the White Jaguar without metaphorically wetting herself. If she can't help you, she can always get someone who can.

Bad gods:
Dhiyasseh: Former queen of the gods (replaced by the Moon King's wife). She's a beautiful, but bitchy attention whore who is responsible for things like demoting the unicorns from minor gods to a race of Cool Horses.

Poisoned-Voice: Former king of the gods (replaced by the Moon King). Enjoys making people miserable in general, so there's not much stories about him in particular.

edited 9th Jun '10 3:58:41 PM by Sharysa

Hmmm... I want to know more about this sea goddess and her son-in-law trickster god. And why does it sound like Ilteyah and her husband should have a kid? ... That's just me wanting a Cute Shotaro Boy in this pantheon, because mythology rarely has them. XP

Also, Messidoun sounds awesome. XD

edited 9th Jun '10 1:29:33 PM by Kuiper

well, I haven't gotten to use these ideas quite yet, so consider it sort of a freebie but I was also playing around with creating pantheons of an island nation. It seems to me that since you don't want the cliche sun god powerful, moon god weak. Think about the nature of an island. On land, the sun rules everything, pretty much. on an island, this is not necessarily so. You said yourself that there is only a four month dry season. So, the season of the jaguar is four months long and then the rest of the eight months (or however many there are), the sun is obscured. It is not a very powerful thing. Think about egypt for a second. They live in the sahara region. The sun is pretty much there all the time, hence Ra. The moon is an excellent choice for a supreme god of islanders, mostly because it influences the one thing that islanders care about the most, and that is the sea.

To an islander, the sea would be the primary source of food and livelihood. If the islands are big, like in Japan, there would be gods of grain, or if an island is volcanic, it would have powerful and angry earth gods or spirits. Still, the sea is important. So. since you have a moon god, a sea goddess would be very sensible,and should be very powerful. You should also have a twin to separate the fact that there is a difference between fresh water and salt. the fresh water god could also be a storm god, or an earth god depending on your islands. just a thought

It seems to me that since you don't want the cliche sun god powerful, moon god weak.

What? I didn't say anything about power—I just wanted to avert the "sun-god is a happy ball of goodness" idea that most people in temperate climates have as a stock mythos, which is why the White Jaguar is a Jerk with a Heart of Gold.

To an islander, the sea would be the primary source of food and livelihood. If the islands are big, like in Japan, there would be gods of grain, or if an island is volcanic, it would have powerful and angry earth gods or spirits.

Interesting coincidence: The Japanese counterpart of their culture depends quite a bit on rice. On the protein side: They raise poultry and goats, and the nobility hunts deer as well, but fish are indeed their most common source of protein.

Since you have a moon god, a sea goddess would be very sensible, and should be very powerful. You should also have a twin to separate the fact that there is a difference between fresh water and salt. The fresh water god could also be a storm god, or an earth god depending on your islands. just a thought.

Since my islands are the dry season/wet season type of tropics, the twin deities in question would be that of drought/flood rather than freshwater/saltwater. Maybe they should be the Jaguar's kids by [insert goddess who isn't put off by a giant jaguar or his Knight Templar Big Brother status].

I'm off to build more Mythopoeia. ...And, well, write so I can see what feels natural in the actual novels.

Its worth to note that, in many mythologies, the Sun God really isn't good, or at least was supposed to be good but Values Dissonance ruined whatever benevolence there was supposed to be. For instance, not only was Apollo also a god of plague, he was also a rapist (much like Zeus), and the lusitanian deity of the Sun, Neto (well, one of the two; much like Greek Mythology had Helios and Apollo, Lustiania had Endovelicus and Neto) was also a deity of war.

So yes, there's plenty of good reasons why the solar deity could be at the very least a Jerkass.

Indeed. It's strange how everyone got the idea when the opposite was true in many real-life pantheons.

Perhaps because in ancient/medieval times, the sun was treated as "good" because it was less harmful than the OTHER natural phemonena (rain, snow, fires, etc), and we gradually flanderized it into "perfect happy sun who can do no wrong."

Take a look into Aztec mythology. Their sun god, sure, he kept life going with his light, but at a terrible price: Human Sacifice. The Aztecs sacrificed so much lives per day just to keep the Sun god happy that they resorted into taking prisoners from already conquered villages to satiate the god's hunger. So your Sun god may do something similar to your character's world, in constant hunger for tribute from the mortal world, threatening to bring down droughts, rains of fire and take away their precious light and warmth if they arent ok with that. Also, if take a more scietific look at the sun, you could always have radiation cancer, sunburn, heatstroke and dehydration as negative traits for it.

edited 17th Sep '10 2:02:27 PM by heartlessmushroom

Thanks for the input, but I think I edited my first post to mention that I'm already done with brainstorming. My sun-god is a Jerk with a Heart of Gold who is all right as long as nobody pisses him off or threatens his moon-god little brother.

My sun goddess is the daughter of the god of violence, sister of the goddess of chaos, and the granddaughter of the god of evil. As you can imagine she's just the greatest person ever.

She doesn't usually go out of her way to be a jerk for no reason, but if the opportunity presents itself to cause a little mischief, far be it from her to avoid it. She is, however, EXTREMELY vindictive. She takes after her grandfather and tends towards unnecessarily convoluted, super-delayed revenge.

That mortal said the sun was unusually hot today? She'll set him up with all kinds of wealth and success and make sure he's got a big family, and then shortly before his death by old age, kill his entire family, burn his possessions and generally make his life go to shit. And she'd make damn sure he knew it was her that did it by putting in a personal appearance right before he died.

edited 9th Oct '10 2:01:22 AM by Anaheyla