In general: Doctor Who

This page is perplexing me. It's extremely long, has a scattershot description, and doesn't remotely match the formatting of any other page on the wiki. I don't know a whole heck of a lot about this series, and this page isn't helping.

The main obvious fixes I can think of are to split this page between the retro show and the revival (if only to make appearance of the word "series" in this article substantially less confusing). Beyond that I'm really unsure. Do we just write a better explanation, deleting the "significant characters and concepts" sections as being redundant? Expand the wiki so there's a more appropriate place for things like "cultural influence". I really have no idea. What I do know is that in spite of all the time I've spent here I still have very little idea of what Doctor Who is supposed to be about, and I suspect this page is part of the problem.

See you in the discussion pages.

I am not in favour of turning this into two pages, as it's one show, just a very long-running one.

If you don't understand what the show is about, start watching it. The description seems like a reasonable stab at trying to make a series that's difficult to explain comprehensible. Since the canon of Doctor Who is ineplicably convoluted splitting the pages wont do anything to help explain things.

"Reasonable stab" isn't good enough. This is one of the most highly referenced shows on the wiki. It needs to be held to a higher standard. I can think of no satisfactory reason why the vast majority of the write-up is dedicated to entries that would make a lot more sense as trope examples.

See you in the discussion pages.

This is mainly because in Britain, a "series" is roughly equivilent to a "season" in television in America.

And I found the descriptions on the page perfectly fine. There's no need to split.

edited 1st Sep '10 6:49:25 PM by alliterator

Yes. I think that the description is fine, even if some things could do with trimming or editing. Or perhaps general shafting to a Trivia page, if it has one.

Splitting it into two pages for new series and the older series could work, but I don't think it's a good idea. There are a lot of times when you get "Doctor Who has used this trope several times" followed by a list of stories that use it in both the new and old series, plus there are some tropes that apply to the show as a whole...it's a revival, not a "reimagining" or whatever.

I guess it is.

Some of the content could be moved to the analysis namespace, or to Whoniverse. Much of the rest could be folderised. However, if changes are needed, we might be better off starting the description from scratch: write a 1000 word description, satisfying Some Guy, and ending up '... for much more information see UsefulNotes.Doctor Who,' which would hold the current content, and more. Trivia wouldn't be the right namespace; that's for minor background details.

The first question, though, should be what do non-Britons, not familiar with the show, make of the current page? Are Some Guy#s concerns typical or not?

Cattle die, kinsmen die. You yourself will surely die. Only word-fame dies not, for one who well achieves it.

Let's not make Useful Notes pages for works. That's what Works pages are supposed to be in the first place.

The kind of stuff we talking about for Doctor Who doesn't fit under trivia though. Put it under that heading, and people will keep on adding it to the main page because it's not trivial, or because they simply can't find it. The other option is to put it under analysis.

Cattle die, kinsmen die. You yourself will surely die. Only word-fame dies not, for one who well achieves it.

I think the "Significant characters and concepts" should stay, albeit trimmed down to a more manageable level, but I don't think any of the sections from "The Evolving Show" onwards (apart from maybe the "Children's Family Show" bit) are really needed.

By "trimmed down" do you mean "integrated with the regular description" or are we insisting on keeping the special blocks?

I still have yet to hear a convincing reason why we require a special section on the Sonic Screwdriver instead of simply bringing it up under...whatever trope the Sonic Screwdriver is invoking.

See you in the discussion pages.

It could probably stand to be shortened. The show is about a lonely wanderer, who has a time machine. As he wanders through time and space he picks up companions who join him for their own reasons and leave for their own reasons. Early on his goal was to return home although after his granddaughter opted to stay behind he seemed to give up on that, going on to accept a life in exile until much later he seems to be the last of his people.

Splitting it based on the revival date would be messy. The new show is doing a good job at continuing from the old show. You might as well choose any other date to split it.

OK, I've only ever seen one episode of Doctor Who, everything else I know about it is through Pop-Cultural Osmosis, and I don't find the current description bad or confusing. The main problem, if anything, is that it talks more about the show's reception than about the show itself, but then, since it's episodic, perhaps that's necessary.

I disagree. I think the Evolving Show is essential, because the character of the show has changed very much over the years and on multiple dimensions and this is hugely significant.

You can't airbrush 50 years out of history.

^ Sounds like a prime candidate for a piece on the Analysis.Doctor Who page, then.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I shall take a stab at this:

Doctor Who is the longest running Science Fiction show in history. Since its debut on 23 November 1963 on BBC television, the British scifi series Doctor Who has thrilled, terrified and aroused three generations of fans worldwide. It also has an extensive Expanded Universe in the form of novels, radio plays and other media.

The show follows the adventures of an iconoclastic Time Lord, the Doctor (Doctor who? No,not "Doctor Who"), and his various companions through time and space. His relations with the establishment on his homeworld of Gallifrey are not always cordial (including periods where he is officially in exile, or even once on trial for treason), so he lives traveling the universe and fighting evil instead. Travelling in his time machine, the TARDIS, he meets many foes, a range that includes heavily armoured robots, microbes, humans, unfriendly aliens and occasionaly members of his own race. As of the series Revival starting with the 9th Doctor, he is the Last of His Kind in the aftermath of the off-screen Time War, where he performed the final act that destroyed both the Time Lords and their enemies alike (who within two seasons mostly manage to get written back in thanks to Joker Immunity).

Part of the reason the Doctor has managed to exist so long (and so long) is that when faced with imminent death he and other Time Lords undergo "regeneration"; he transforms into a basically different person, with an entirely new appearance and altered personality but the same memories. The show gave birth to The Nth Doctor trope; 11 actors to date  ¹

have played the 11 different Doctors. That's them in the picture above.

The Doctor almost always travels with one or more Companions: predominantly young, female, and attractive. Sometimes they are men, or humanoid aliens, or, famously, a robot dog, K-9. The original idea was that the companions would be the "point-of-view" characters for the audience at home, in contrast to the mysterious, anti-heroic Doctor. However, as the Doctor's character softened, became more heroic and became a point-of-view character in his own right, the role of the companions evolved; some to be exposition generators or the Damsel in Distress, others that grow into heroes in their own right, a couple love interests (a feature of the "New Who" that would be unheard of in the old) and sometimes moral anchors when the burden of being the lonely defender of worlds and the Laws of Time becomes too much.

Other iconic fixtures of the show include:

• The TARDIS: Stands for Time And Relative Dimension In Space. The blue police box (Americans: think "old phone booth") that serves as the Doctor's Cool Ship, Living Ship, Alledged Ship and Time Machine. A TARDIS comes with a Chameleon Circuit that allows it to blend in with the local setting, but the Doctor's broke in London way back in the first season and it's been stuck that way since. It's Bigger on the Inside.
• The Sonic Screwdriver: Introduced by the Second Doctor, it's a piece of Applied Phlebotium that can be adapted to nearly any situation according to the needs of the plot including opening most locked doors, accessing computer information, the occasional improvised weapon and occasionally actually being a screwdriver.
• The Daleks, The Cybermen, The Master and other iconic foes: The Daleks are a race of Omnicidal Maniac aliens created by a man called Davros, genetically engineered to be devoid of all emotions but hate, encased in a Nigh-Invulnerable armor chassis and given a trademark synth voice and Catchphrase "Ex-ter-MI-NATE!". Anyone tempted to think of them as talking garbage cans on wheels will quickly be very sorry or very dead. Cybermen are humanoid cyborgs - converted humanoids actually - who want to turn the rest of the world into other perfect, emotionless Cybermen (any resemblance to the Borg is strictly coincidental; Who did it first). The Master is The Doctor's evil counterpart, a rogue Time Lord whose plans generally run on the theme of trying to Take Over the World. See the character sheet for more details and other recurring enemies.
• UNIT, Torchwood Institute, etc: Various secret Earth organizations that not only know about the Doctor but help him (or need helping by him) from time to time. UNIT, a United Nations Unified Intelligence Taskforce that deals specifically with alien or superscientific threats, was introduced in 1969. The Third Doctor, stuck on Earth, worked for UNIT as a scientific advisor. and he has been involved with them on and off since. Torchwood, an organisation funded by the British royalty under Queen Vicky after a meeting with the Tenth Doctor, had the specific aim of arming The British Empire with alien technology. It was introduced in the new series in 2006, six months before the Darker and Edgier spinoff series, and initially had The Doctor listed as "an enemy of the crown"; after the plot resulted in its destruction it was taken over by ally and former companion Captian Jack and rebuilt with better intentions.

The changes the show has gone through over the years could fill a long essay. It's gone through many writers and showrunners (Americans: think "producer/director"), every one whom is, for some fan, the one who Ruined It Forever.. It's evolved from an educational children's show about science and history to afterschool, low budget sci-fi action series to prime time, larger budget "but still a family show" drama phenomenon. It plays fast and loose with its continuity and tone Depending on the Writer and gave the name to the trope Timey-Wimey Ball for the way it handles the laws of time travel.

The format of the show has also changed greatly. Classic Who episodes are grouped into Serials (usualy 4 to 6 episodes running 25 minutes each, and occasionally serials that tied into an overreaching arc). This spans 26 seasons during the years from 1963 to 1989, with an 18 month break during 1985 and 1986. A Made-for-TV Movie aired in 1996, the only TV appearance of the Eighth Doctor. It was made as a Back Door Pilot for a series revival that never went anywhere and many fans (and to some degree Word of God) consider it Dis Continuity, not least for violating key canon by stating the Doctor was a Half-Human Hybrid. (The Eighth Doctor would later get a proper run in a series of BBC radio dramas). There were also two non-canon (and generally non-acknowledged) theatrical movies. The next prelude to rebooting Who came in the form of several BBC-produced webcasts between 2001 and 2003. The successful revival, called "Nu Who" by fans, launched in 2005, rebooting the season numbering from "Series 1" and starting with the Ninth Doctor. It mostly abandoned serials for more traditional episodic seasons, 13 45-minute episodes plus specials with an overarching Story Arc and Myth Arc. It's currently the most popular show on the BBC.

Along with countless books and semi-canonical audio/video releases in the Doctor Who Expanded Universe, the show has three official television spin-offs: Darker and Edgier Torchwood (bisexual alien hunters in Cardiff); the (somewhat) Lighter and Softer The Sarah Jane Adventures (beloved ex-companion and a handful of Meddling Kids fight aliens in London); and K-9 by Park Entertainment, which debuted simultaneously in the UK, US, and Australia in January 2010. A fourth spinoff, K-9 & Company, was stillborn in 1981.

It's still long, but shorter. Anything I didn't include fits better either in Analysis, a trope entry or a Character Sheet page. Someone should also check my work for facts.

edited 8th Sep '10 11:59:52 PM by Elle

Cybermen are cyborgs, not robot-things. They have human brains, and often other organic parts. The Master should be listed in the same paragraph, as the Doctor's evil opposite. That's the three most iconic villains, in no particular order.

Cattle die, kinsmen die. You yourself will surely die. Only word-fame dies not, for one who well achieves it.

Done and done. I actually knew about the Cybermen for Nu Who but I wasn't sure about the classic series, which I've only seen parts of.

Also, should mention that classic Who episodes were normally 25 minutes, while New Who runs at 45 minutes, and leave out the reference to "Trial of a Time Lord" completely. Whether that counts as one serial or three is contentious in some quarters, and 'usually 4-6 25 minutes episodes' covers it.

The fifth Doctor lost the Sonic Screwdriver, so Six and Seven never used one, but this is probably the kind of detail that belongs under the appropriate trope, whatever that is.

Cattle die, kinsmen die. You yourself will surely die. Only word-fame dies not, for one who well achieves it.

Hmmm.

The trouble is one person's "analysis" is another persons vital information that anyone discovering the show needs to know.

This is not Wikipedia. There is no such thing as notability.

With that in mind:

• No mention of the theme music, one of the most important and influential tunes of the post-War years. Yes, it was that important: arguably the BBC Radiophonic Workshop's finest hour, certainly Ron Grainer's epitaph and so iconic that not even the US-led 1996 movie dared tamper too much. Blazed the trail for electronic music;

• No mention of the lost episodes, a critical part of Who lore. It's not just that William Hartnell's final episode is lost, but that Patrick Troughton's contribution (he is very much "my Doctor") was devastated, with many iconic monsters lost or damaged: the Ice Warriors, The Yeti, The Quark, The Zarbies;

• No mention of the webcasts, which were the BBC's official continuation of the show, not EU, until the revival;

• No proper consideration of the iconic nature of the show itself, the TARDIS or the Daleks or how a slightly bonkers kid's TV show has become to damned influential on British culture. And yes, that belongs here, not in some 'analysis' page (just from a user interface point of view, having to follow links to understand why a show is important is bad design). Icons aren't "fixtures".

• An overwhelming sense of a "new series" perspective.

Generally, there is no sense of the wit, charm and especially the eccentricity of the show. And if our hypothetical newbie turns up, that is vital (but yes, it must be done in a way to invite them in, rather than baffle).

^^ Will do.

^ Taking the points in order:

• The Theme music: Should be covered under an Iconic Theme Tune in the trope list. It's important to Who but covering it doesn't add anything to a hypothetical understanding of "What's this show about?" which is what I was going for.

• Lost Episodes: Again, I believe that should be moved to its appropriate trope entry.

• Webcasts: Will amend that.

• Much of the anyalsis content: I leave that for others to argue, frankly. Just this: one of the wiki's style guidelines says that page descriptions should not go "below the fold" - past one screen worth of scrolling. Some leeway should obviously be given for a series as long and complex as Who but not the whole essay's worth of leeway it currently has. Something's gotta give. If I can sneek in maybe a few sentances worth maybe...

• Nu Who bias: I freely admit this, and am looking to Wiki Magic (well, Forum magic) to help balance it out.

• Sense of Wit of the show: I don't believe the current version conveys much of that either. Wit is a matter of tone, it's not going to be brought in just by adding more detail, much less burying it in details.

Edit to add: Wait, we don't have an Iconic Theme Tune page?

edited 5th Sep '10 9:51:41 AM by Elle

Analysis content should be namespaced to an Analysis page, so it's available for those who are interested but not in the way for those who just want the trope list.

BTW, I'm a chick.

The webcasts (Scream of the Shalka, at any case) were an official continuation, but have been relegated to the Expanded Universe.

One itty nitpick, Elle: The description should not start below the fold. It can continue below the fold, but you shouldn't have to scroll down to find where it starts.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.