Questions on the anime/manga style

Yeah that's kind of like learning to draw by copying Steve Ditko. Better, but it's still copying from stylization. You'll eventually develop a style that other people can point and see "Ah, this person is just copying this person."

It even happened within the manga world. Eiichiro Oda and Hiro Mashima both came from the "Copying Dragonball Z" generation, and look at how long it took for the wm to evolve into something that was a little bit more their own! Ten years or more!

Also, it runs the risk of trapping you in a particular style. Style, though it looks like a wondrous palace when first getting into it, replete with a comfortable, familiar set of tools, becomes a prison with gilded bars. By distilling art to the basics, by building on a foundation of reality, you can be free to develop your style in any direction you please. I didn't always draw manga style. In fact, I only started drawing manga style when I decided "I want to try drawing manga style!" Before that my style looked like Jhonen Vasquez! And before I picked up Jhonen Vasquez, it looked like American superheroes.

edited 20th Sep '10 9:58:48 PM by [AOD]

Long Story Short:

If you seriously want to become a better artist, listen to what we're saying and learn the basics of anatomy and such, then learn how to apply stylization to it.

If you don't, copy your heart out and remember that it's never too late to change your mind.

I don't reccomend copying anime. But if you're drawing, and you don't need to have some guy on the internet tell you before hand, you're ahead of the game already.

To put it simply, I think you're full of it. Ultimatums don't impress me, since even one exception to the rule disproves your point, and there have been more than enough visible popular exceptions to your claim to make it sound like narrow-minded elitest garbage.

Lots of artists started by drawing fanart, copying their favorite artists, and just drawing things for fun, as opposed to immediately cracking open the Loomis anatomy books and attending nude model sessions. More than enough of them have moved on to those things, eventually, become more serious about their art, and make a living or serious hobby off of it, without any problems. It is a perfectly viable path for starting in art.

As an artist, I would hope you can appreciate how much hard work, effort, and dedication improving one's art truly is, how many hundreds of hours of practice it takes just to get 'decent', how terribly every artist starts out, and the highs and lows that come of it. Bottom line, it's hard. Lots of people would love to know how to draw well. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a person who professed that they would hate to know how to draw. Out of a thousand people, one thousand of them would like drawing skill, maybe a few hundred would make at least a lukewarm attempt at attaining that skill, maybe a few dozen would pursue this path for more than a few months or a year, and a small handful of that will stick with it long enough to have decent, passable skill. Maybe one or two will attain a true mastery of it.

What was all that about, that description of the obvious? To illustrate again that ART IS HARD. It takes PASSION, DEDICATION, EFFORT. Tossing out empty one-liners about 'realizing her potential through hard work and determination' is really damn impractical. It makes it sound easy to do that, which it's not. Art isn't an either-or prospect "Either you'll make shitty or no art or you'll have the dedication necessary to become a master of the craft".

It's wonderful that you started the 'proper' way with anatomy books, observation, etc.. As someone who started like that, as opposed to, say, copying cartoons, I'm going to assume that you enjoyed your work, or at least appreciated it? Drawing that way, it wasn't absolutely boring, completely miserable work?

The point is though, that that's likely what you wanted to do, at least on some level. Not everyone is like that. When I started drawing, I loved anime art, cartoons, etc., I thought they were pretty and fun. Realistic drawings, drawing from observation? I HATED IT. It was harder, it took longer to copy one thing, it was boring, realistic styles were boring, etc.. Most of all, even if I had the skill at the time to draw these types of things perfectly, replicate them as I saw them, I WOULD HATE THE END RESULT. You can see the conflict here. I imagine lots of people starting out, especially younger ones and ones that just want to draw cartoons or whatever felt similarly as I did.

The thing that seems to be the backbone of this ridiculous argument that starting to draw by drawing what one likes (copying, anime, etc.) is that 'you'll learn bad habits' or become 'trapped'. Being fueled by such a 'danger' to only start drawing in the one 'right way' is paranoia to the extreme. I am only one example, but all my drawing of only anime-style and cartoons and such didn't hinder me at all when I finally started practicing nude figure drawing from photos, and I honestly have no idea what people are talking about.

Honestly, the 'danger' of learning 'bad habits' to unlearn can be easily argued to be just as possible even drawing from real life observation. I've seen a few different artists with great artistic skill, grasp of anatomy, and range, but when trying to draw 'cute things', I noticed they seemed to keep falling short because they insisted on retaining unnecessary details that actually subtracted from the drawing's cuteness. I couldn't help but think that if they didn't put so much of their usual attention to detail and knowledge into it, it would have been cuter. But it would be ridiculous to argue that because of this minor-minor potential 'danger' people who want to draw cute shouldn't learn realistic drawing.

OK, I think that's where I'll stop making points about that. I could go on, and on, and on about this, as it annoys the hell out of me when people make this argument, but I've already gone on waaay too much. Why does it bug me so much? If people like you pushed your 'advice' on me when I first started drawing, I never would have stayed. I would have quit, I know I would have quit and I damn near well almost did. I loved to draw as a little kid, but nothing killed a passion for it quite like being told to sit for three hours and observe and draw a bunch of animal skulls. I'm obviously not the best artist, and learning has been much slower for me than if I followed the same artistic path you have, I admit that easily. But I sure as hell do know what I'm saying when I say that the most important thing to learning how to draw IS THAT YOU DRAW. It's hard enough for people to stick with art for the long haul, and whichever way someone takes that makes that path easier to stay on, especially near the beginning, is acceptable. Whichever way someone tries to steer them toward that would make them quit is a dead end.

I will always fully admit that learning to draw first with human anatomy, light and shading, proper color theory, 3-dimensional form, observation, and other 'art fundamental' skills is much preferable for anyone serious about improving their art, and quickly. And anyone who wants a true mastery and versatility with their art must learn these skills eventually. It's preferable to learn these as soon as you feel up to them, as you will improve in spades and far more than if you were to copy anime or doodle. But I just don't believe it's necessary to start with them.

T L D R I still disagree. Strongly.

ali

edited 21st Sep '10 6:54:59 PM by almyki

Aren't you just projecting?

Basically, isn't that entire post, which I did read, more a rant about you and not her?

edited 21st Sep '10 7:46:52 PM by [AOD]

It's not about me or her specifically. It's about the advice that I see all too often that beginning artists drawing anime or cartoons they enjoy is detrimental and that They're Doing It Wrong, quickly accompanied by strict directions that the one only path to True Art is through careful study of life and 'serious books'. That would be almost good advice, as I agree with the encouragement to seek proper anatomy books and practice observational drawing if seeking true artistic improvement, but the railroading attitude itself I find extremely off=putting and potentially detrimental. It annoys me a terrible amount when I see a fellow artist act so... well... narrow. I cringe at the thought of when a potential newbie artist has a budding spark for drawing snuffed out by veteran artists that press too hard about the 'proper' way to learn. It's like you don't realize how easy that is to do, how fragile the beginning steps are.

I do have a lot to say about it, because it is closer to me, obviously. I wouldn't go on about it like this if I felt I were some isolated incident though; I feel strongly about it because I believe that I can relate to a lot of artists and potential artists that have or may be going through similar experiences.

ali

Well there's no reason someone can't practice both at the same time, or add in the formal lessons and techniques one by one.

Just as long as she's not copying anime verbatim and realizing that anime is a derivation, an abstraction from reality.

Look, you don't seem to understand that if unless she builds on at least a conceptual realization of the "realistic" foundation, she won't be able to make good anime art. The best artists in anime and manga all learned at least a conceptual basis of the foundations of art, even if they never quite got ABSOLUTE PERFECT REALISM, and were free to simplify and develop from there. You have to complexify before you can simplify. She won't be able to make it her own, to make something unique to her.

Style doesn't come first, it comes later.

Sure, sure, have fun drawing Inuyasha or tracing Goku whenever you like, but please realize that you should also make at least some effort to learn something about the foundation. You need something to build upon. Launching straight into stylization is going off at half cock.

I am only one example, but all my drawing of only anime-style and cartoons and such didn't hinder me at all when I finally started practicing nude figure drawing from photos, and I honestly have no idea what people are talking about.

Yeah, and I bet your anime-style stuff improved after you started practicing, didn't it?

The difference is that, say, someone starts a habit of, oh, I don't know... drawing women's bodies like Nami from One Piece. Even if they later on start to trace bodies from photos, in the drawings where they're not tracing, they still feel compelled to draw skinny wasp waists and busts floating on air. That's how style can become a habit.

edited 21st Sep '10 8:22:23 PM by [AOD]

This is not the path to true art we're discussing, though. We're just talking about ways to improve, with the general consensus that copying doesn't do much in that area. Since starting from the ground up with anatomy and perspective is a tried and true method for improvement up to a certain point, that's generally what we're going to talk about.

I'm going to have to agree with the idea that one should work on drawing things from real life before figuring out a particular style. It probably sounds ridiculous, but when you know how things are shaped, formed, and work together it makes taking all that and simplifying it and distorting it a lot easier. Especially if you're deliberately applying a style. (I feel like this◊ illustrates what I'm trying to say better than I can say it.) Looking at other artists' work and drawing inspiration is good, but copying...doesn't really help. Developing art-wise is not always going to be easy or fun. There are parts you're going to hate and you'll have to find a way to force yourself to practice those parts to improve. It's just what you have to deal with, but it's something that's worth the effort. Also, I apologize if none of that made sense and just seemed like brain-dribble since it kind of was.

Drawing from real life is better for learning the fundamentals, which are going to make pretty much everyone who has the patience to learn them a much better artist who can work in more various and more experimental styles, and whose stylized work will be much stronger on top of that.

But if you're going to be bored of drawing real life stuff or dread doing it, you're not going to keep doing it long enough to get any good. Do whatever you enjoy doing. Because it's the only way you're going to stand a chance of keeping at it long enough to be any good at all. If all you enjoy is anime art, then do anime art. Just be prepared to suffer being scoffed at for derivative stylization and weak fundamentals.

If you enjoy doing it, the rest of it is secondary. You've got 10,000-50,000 bad drawings in you to get out of the way regardless, and you're not going to get through them if you're not having fun.

I'll let you know my experience:

I started with my own quazi-cartoon childlish style, which I swapped for anime in several months. I continued that way, and now I struggle to get better at anatomy. When I try to draw a person realistically, I want to make them thin and angular like I do with anime drawings. This is bad and it bugs me. I did improve since I have started...yes...but not as much. You can see that for yourself, but will also notice that while better than before, that shit is still wonky.

On the other hand. If drawing nude models and flowers and cubes and spheres will make you want to swear drawing off forever...then dilute it with a bit of fun stuff. But keep the copying to a minimum, try to draw from your imagination. I think anime art should be used like a vast resource of inspiration. Look at lots of pictures in your mind, catalogue what you like, and then use it later to create something that's all your own.

On the other other hand...if this is just going to be a hobby you'll do every once in a while, go for it, copy away, go crazy. But be aware of the fact that once you go down that road it's difficult to correct the mistakes you'll be so set in making. (Stylized anatomy, etc.) If you just want to draw for fun and don't care for the technicalities, then draw away, but you'll only ever get so good at it, without the solid foundation.

You know what I would recommend? Get Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. That is a book that teaches you basics, but it's actually full of fun exercises, and the writing style is a fresh and breezy. Impossible to get bored with it :D

No you are all wrong, true art can only be achieved in my way see this is how you do it,

Also [AOD] is the best even though he draws SHITTY ANIMES ART man why are you drawing that just look at those jagged lines you are making my head explode in sensory overload.

Oh no everyone who does not use a tablet is automatically disqualified from drawing anything whatever are we going to do.

Fuck off.

Wow, this topic is sure touchy among artist. Never expected it to spark off so much reaction from tvtropes though.

When you guys mention draw from real life, you mean from actual photos? I am not sure I am not the right track of thinking about this, but I shy off from drawing those due to seeming high difficulty involved. It just doesn't seems the kind of thing you just "start" off with.

Do anyone have any sites recommended for this kinda of training? (I a am cheapskate and partly started out with manga because was easier because I used to go to one manga and just save the images).

edited 22nd Sep '10 11:56:27 PM by kalandra

It's not all that difficult to copy a photo. There are even many fine artists who recommend against it because drawing from a photo can be so different from drawing something that's right in front of you.

I am not such a person, especially if your pursuing the ability to draw people and animals. Still, when people say "draw from life," we mean draw from physical things in front of you whenever possible.

As a beginner exercise, there are many ways to simplify photo copying. I think you'll learn the most by paying careful attention to the forms that make up a figure and their proportions , which is why so many people will recommend the Loomis Books. He encourages people to draw from imagination as well, which may people find more satisfying, including myself.

The easiest method though, if you really can't be convinced to start any other way, is most definitely the grid method. This is a kinda crappy explanation google gave me. It's easy to come reliant on it and it doesn't teach you much, though.

In between are probably the Tony Ryder Method and the Bargue Method. You can buy his book, or you can try to figure out some of his technique by looking at his portrait demonstrations in charcoal. Probably the best instruction I've seen on the Bargue Method is on CA, but you need to register with the forum to see it. Here.

edited 23rd Sep '10 5:21:01 AM by Roman

The book I mentioned above, Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, by Betty Edwards, has a site here.

Buuut, if you look hard enough, there's PDFs of the book floating around on the net. Of course, that's piracy, but the option is there. :p

Your local library might have it too, though. Mine did :3

Also, note that it's way easier to copy a photo than it is to copy something in front of you. With a photo you can use a grid, for one thing. Another thing is that going from 2D to 2D and 3D to 2D are two completely different concepts. I will never forgive my art teacher for saying "Drawing from a photo is much easier than from an object, isn't it? Yeah, I like that better, let's do that."

GRAAAREGGHHH

edited 23rd Sep '10 5:39:04 AM by Nika-senpai

Also: Posemaniacs is very helpful.

Nope, we mean stuff that's literally drawn from IRL. As in, when you take a class on figure drawing, you have live naked people posing for you as you stand around and fiddle with your charcoal, or while learning landscape painting, you might have to go outside and paint a field or something. That's also probably when a lot of people realize how useful easels are, but that's nether here nor there.

And really, doing that is not that hard as long as you have a good book or a good teacher teaching it to you on a beginner level. Unfortunately, not everyone gets to that part while they still have interest, So Yeah.

If you're going for cheap, though, I'd suggest just looking at the public library's art section and skimming the instructional books for a bit. Just as long as it isn't a "How to Draw (Random Animal Here)" book, you should start getting snippets of fundamental drawing advice, and a clearer picture of what you do and don't know.

Once you know what you don't know, it makes it a lot easier to just check out a book on that subject or searching for chapters about it in related books. However, if you don't know what you don't know before doing that, the whole idea of searching the books by yourself kinda goes to hell, so try not do get down while you're only skimming stuff — that's when its supposed to be confusing.

I don't they allow nude models here , or even drawing classes (that I know about). I live in a rather conservative country and drawing isn't really offered as course in universities. Closest is probably something like graphic design or fashion design, but its still something of DIY thing here. And I can't afford books either. I still think drawing from real life is kinda hard, but I give it a try when I am free.

Another question : If I do draw from other people drawing (not necessarily anime/manga), is that just as bad as copying anime/manga, or better?

I don't see how it would be better.

Yeah, it's just as bad!

There's a tradition of master copying. Generally, though, master copies are considered an advanced thing after you already know something about drawing well from life and imagination.

People who get ahead of themselves can still become master of one style, and basically become clones of another artist. Some artists consider this a bad result, but there are people who've made careers this way.

There's a greater risk that after becoming good at creating master copies, that's all you'll be able to do, with a lot of skills that are otherwise non transferable. That's what you really have to watch out for.

edited 26th Sep '10 4:52:57 PM by Roman

This is late. I had a busy week, and then I forgot this. Oops.

A beginner won't make 'good' art, anime or otherwise, regardless of what they're starting out with or what they know theoretically; they often don't have the technical skill or muscle control/practice to even be able to make properly smooth lines, curves, or shapes. Everyone starts at Level 1.

I realize everything that you're saying, I've heard it all before and I believe (most of) it.

I don't know what drawing level a person is without seeing them, so this talk is all quite generalizing, but I see a line (a fuzzy, vague line) there between almost complete beginner, amateur with some practice, skilled amateur, etc.. And I believe for a complete beginner (artistic product comparable to kindergarten's crayon scrawls, for example) drawing or tracing anime characters could be just as helpful as copying a photorealistic nude, since a beginner should only be concentrating on getting enough line control to make straight lines, curved lines, etc. consistently, and other basic skills.

From that starting point, it gets a little fuzzier, and anybody who actively wants to improve should definitely be directed at some quality anatomy, perspective, and art fundamental books, but I don't believe that 'next step' becomes immediately necessary at any clear point; I think it's up to each individual person's own wants, needs, and personal motivations. Whether they're just holding a hobby, they want to become a master, they want to create cute pictures or an amateur comic, whatever.

I feel I am saying too little with too many words. I hope through that mess that my point is still being communicated?

As for whether my anime-style stuff improved after drawing nudes from life, I really couldn't tell you. No doubt it did, but I haven't noticed any significant spurts, if that's what you mean; my drawing skill has been pieced together from various different sources over a long while, so a lot of anatomical and proportional knowledge I found I already had. :shrug: Art is an incremental experience and all.

I understand how style can become a habit, but I also believe that can easily be argued for drawing 'realism' as a 'style', and that such a 'danger' shouldn't be held as such a high threat as it sometimes is; I feel such a paranoia can inflict more harm than help, especially if it only serves to hinder drawing practice by being afraid of drawing 'the wrong things'.

I believe that copying can do a lot for learning for many beginners.

I think I'm repeating myself more than I'd like, but I don't remember clearly if I am.

- - - - -

As a recommendation for resources concerning all things art-related here is:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/

Concept artists and aspiring artists all around visit this forum, and you'll find lots of practices, workshops, tutorials, criticism, help, etc.. I know there's at least one nude pose thread there that I used a lot to practice from, and a reference subforum, and a whole thread filled with links to free artbook PD Fs, plus plenty of good artbook recommendations! I don't think you could ever exhaust everything they've got to show you (okay, you probably could, but you get my point) .

As for drawing from other artist's drawings, or learning from them, I'd say sure, there are lots of popular anatomy books with tons of hand-drawn work you can learn a lot from (the very-popular Loomis books above being an example), though I'm pretty sure they'll all recommend you also practice much more from photos and real-life as well.

<3 ali