Misused: Karma Houdini Warranty

Note: This thread was proposed by Master N.

The Problem: Concerns were raised over the scope of the trope and if it has to happen in a later installment specifically. The description explicitly says it has to happen in another installment, implying they have to be a Karma Houdini by the end of at least one installment. But some of the examples are iffy on this. Quite a bit of them are about Big Bads or other villains in seasons or serial works that eventually get defeated in the end of the series, but I'd argue that if they're a season/series-spanning villain, that doesn't really qualify as it is expected they will only be defeated at the end. It also tends to be used for villains who got away with some crime in the backstory, only for karma to catch up to them in the main story, but I would argue that describes most villains, who typically have at least some form of evildoing in the past.

Out of 55/55 wicks:

• Only 8/55 specified the karma occurring in a sequel.
• 10/55 misused it to be about the defeat of a series or season-spanning villain at the end of said series or season.
• 20/55 misused it to refer to villains who are defeated in the same work they are introduced in just because the karma doesn't happen immediately, which is nearly every villain ever.
• 3/55 mistake it for Adaptational Karma.
• 2/55 misused it for "the villain gets away in a prequel but we know they will be defeated in the main work".
• 11/55 were either other misuse or did not have enough information to determine if it qualified.
• And 1/55 was a Zero-Context Example.

Possible Solutions: I dunno what to do here exactly, but we have to make it clear that this only applies to villains who finished their arcs with them getting away, only for the creator(s) to change their mind after the fact and have them get karma in a sequel. A rename is one potential solution; "Retroactive Karma" gets across the point that it changes their Karma Houdini status from the original work, and I was also thinking of "Sudden Sequel Karma Syndrome" (assuming that doesn't violate the Everything's Worse with Snowclones rule).

Paging ~Master N and ~Ferot_Dreadnaught to the thread.

Seems like a rather straightforward rename here. Retroactive Karma seems misleading, and Sudden Sequel Karma Syndrome would likely be as well, as it doesn’t necessarily need to arrive early on. Maybe Karma Waits For A Sequel? Not as concise, but I think it’s decently witty.

Sequel Karma, to shorten it? I just want to make it clear this must happen in another installment. Not necessarily a direct sequel, either; a spinoff or supplementary material can also deliver karma to the former Houdini.

Sequel Karma Squabble? Karma for a Game of Sequels?

ETA: Both Franchise-and-Foe Are Busted is my favorite that I thought of, though IDK if it's super clear (it doesn't necessarily clarify the "sequel" part, even if it insinuates villains being punished regarding their role across a franchise).

Edited by Coachpill on Mar 30th 2024 at 7:38:47 AM

That last one makes it look like the franchise has to be over for it to apply, which is not the case at all, and I don’t particularly think the first two are all that indicative or catchy.

Maybe just Villain Busted by the Sequel? Villain's 'Busted-If-Used-By-Sequel' Date keeps up the spirit of the original name (warranty), though it's probably too clunky-sounding.

Sequel Karma or Sequel Karma Warranty are other possible names.

Other things to consider:

• How long between works does it take for Karma Houdini to count? Does it not count if it was planned they'd get karma all along? Or is the cutoff that the work they'd get karma was in production at the time?
• Would Retroactive Karma, where prequels/flashback give wrongdoings that make their fates in prior works more karmic fall under this? Or might that be something different/worthy of a separate trope?

I didn't take a close look at the OP when I posted the draft, but now that I've looked at it, I suppose Later Installment Karma could be an option, especially if we're allowing later installments that have a gap between it and the previous work, rather than being the next installment in the series. Does the sequel containing the resolution have to be the next installment in the series, or are gaps allowed?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 30th 2024 at 9:47:56 AM

I dunno myself, but I would say a gap is acceptable, since the point seems to be a villain who is originally a Houdini (gets away in one work/installment) has their status subverted after the fact in a later installment. I suggested Sequel Karma because I find it catchier.

I also do not know what exactly the cutoff point would be, but I would say it depends on how long the planning goes. For example, a series-spanning villain only getting punished in the Grand Finale is not notable, so (for example) Fire Lord Ozai would not qualify as this. Basically, if another season is already planned and set up, then the villain only being punished at the end of the other season does not qualify. On the other hand, Kyubey gets away with his actions in the end of the original anime, only for the Rebellion sequel movie, which was not planned from the start, to finally give him punishment in the only good part of that trainwreck ending. So Kyubey counts because his karma was not originally planned, but delivered in a later installment.

Edited by MasterN on Mar 30th 2024 at 9:30:02 AM

I think it's easier to split to move misuse into own trope.

• The Bad Guy Wins or Karma Houdini gets undone in another installment. I don't think time gap matters. I prefer to not apply it to seasonal works.
• The Bad Guy Wins or Karma Houdini gets undone within the work after establishing that all threats to the villain have been ineffective. For ex., someone getting away with a crime, only for new evedience to be discovered years later.

Isn’t the second one just Near-Villain Victory?

It looks like that might be the case.

How is it a "near victory" when it's a "full victory" that is taken apart by new factors? Unless the trope covers that too.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 1st 2024 at 5:20:53 PM

That's a good point. Now I'm more inclined to believe that both of the ideas mentioned in your previous post are distinct from Near-Villain Victory, though I don't have a strong opinion on whether to split them into two tropes or just keep them a single trope with a new name.

That sounds like Meaningless Villain Victory.

Not sure, though it sounds like "a win turned out to not be permanent years later" may work if Meaningless Villain Victory is stretched enough.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 1st 2024 at 5:28:24 PM

to renaming and I'm leaning on Later Installment Karma so far.

Later Installment Karma is a really good name. Super clear.

Later Installment Karma

Later Installment Karma works

Later Installment Karma would be an excellent name.

Later Instalment Karma (would need a Commonwealth English form disambig)

Later Installment Karma works for me.