Marvel's The Marvels

We're all individuals (No, I'm not!) so we all have different opinions on things, naturally.

I wanted to like The Marvels and I enjoyed it well enough on first viewing. The flaws that didn't really matter to me first time might make it not stand up on repeat watches.

But as I originally said, it gave me more Hawkeye so I'll forgive it almost anything. If only Marvel would actually follow up on that quickly I'd be happy.

Edited by dcutter2 on Feb 15th 2024 at 7:45:04 PM

I loved The Marvels as a Random Events Plot, as three contrasting heroines flitting about the galaxy getting into random conflicts on random planets and growing their relationship with each other. That part of the movie was enjoyable, and makes up most of the film, so I liked the movie overall. It was imo better at doing that than some other MCU films, anyway.

But the main plotline that serves as the glue for all those events is weak, and I can’t fault the criticism that those problems bring the film down way lower than it could have been, especially towards the end.

Plus they had to re-edit this to follow Secret Invasion.

Did they? I feel like they didn't accommodate Secret Invasion at all, while Secret Invasion had to scramble to compensate for the lack of setup that The Marvels was supposed to provide it.

I believe the rumors were Sword HQ wasn't supposed to get fixed to set up Fury's deal in SI. Also the Skrulls were supposedly homeless in SI yet there is a colony in this film.

I think the only thing that Secret Invasion would have gotten from coming after The Marvels as currently written, is the implication that making a home on Earth really is the last option after they were driven out from the stars in The Marvels. Though how Emperor Drogue(?) being on Earth would have affecting things...

What they were both like before rewrites who knows?

I think the writers of The Marvels really didn't have Secret Invasion in mind while writing this.

Like, the whole set-up for the show was that the Skrulls were pissed that Fury and Carol never found a new home for them, when... they did. Like, I dunno if the original intention for Secret Invasion was that the Skrulls were supposed to be angry that they didn't find a new colony after Tarnax was destroyed, but that got rewritten after this film was pushed back. But, I doubt it. Especially since that would make Gravik's motivations even more petty that Fury and Carol didn't find them a new home after only a few months at most.

Plus, sending the Skrulls to Earth is a very bad idea after President Ritson pretty much declared open war against at the end of the series. Unless he was impeache— BAHAHAHA!! Oh god, I couldn't finish that sentence!

I find it's best to assume that stories take place in the order they are released unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Regardless, it does seem like The Marvels and Secret Invasion had the same issue that WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness had.

Marvel's usual secrecy resulted in two stories that stepped on each others toes and had the absolute bare minimum of crossover. The result is that the central conceit of Secret Invasion, that the Skrulls had no where to go but Earth, doesn't mesh at all with the depiction on The Marvels where they have a sizable settlement all to themselves and when that falls through it's just a quick call to Valkyrie to put them on the path to finding a new one.

Amusingly, Secret Invasion does acknowledge the existence of the settlement in a single throwaway line and then pretends like it doesn't undermine the entire premise of the show.

Then the Marvels in turn never acknowledges all the problems surrounding the Skrulls on Earth aside from Talos's conspicuous absence.

....It's been said many times before, but so much trouble could of been avoided if they just made the secretly invading Skrulls a renegade faction unaffiliated with Talos.

I think the original intent would have been that the Skrulls are pissed that Carol's shenanigans caused their colony planet to be destroyed. As evidence, I cite the scene in The Marvels where Drogue's group of survivors are pissed that Carol's shenanigans caused their colony planet to be destroyed. They very explicitly blame her for what happened to their world, which segues well into the start of Secret Invasion where they're all pissed off at her.

They had to spend five seconds coming up with "They're mad that Carol didn't find them a planet" because SI's events depend on the Skrulls all being mad at Carol for a reason that, due to the reshuffling of film and show, has not yet happened.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 15th 2024 at 3:54:03 AM

The bigger problem of Secret Invasion was wanting to make comic-accurate Skrulls in a universe where their backstory is very different from the source material as well as try to to make MCU civilians more comic-accurate (aka bigoted).

Which is stupid because that is due to mutant dna not aliens but I guess Marvel wanted it all at once. Though I guess they might sweep it under the rug and say when Ross took office he shut down the anti alien policy for votes but keep that on the table for the "mutant menace". That was the comics. Heck in Endgame Hulk was in public having a selfie with kids.

Edited by Mizerous on Feb 15th 2024 at 7:49:57 AM

In fairness, Marvel civilians are awful to everybody. Reminder that when the Avengers visited the DCU they were utterly perplexed at the idea of the citizens actually liking their heroes.

Edited by lbssb on Feb 15th 2024 at 7:43:21 AM

Yeah, the comics tend to show Marvel civilians as being mostly negative towards heroes (especially for Spiderman, Hulk, X-Men, and Run Aways) with some exception.

However, the movies tend to be more mixed. For example, the second and third Iron Man movies had Tony meet lots of casual fans and be treated as a celebrity.

It's another important difference that makes the adaption of Secret Invasion a real round peg in a square hole situation.

Plus they don't bother with secret identies besides Spider Man. Imagine Tony still acting like Iron Man is a secret identity like Batman. You can't just make Skrulls "evil" when Captain Marvel showed the opposite or make people assholes because anti mutant/alien comic accuracy.

In fairness, an alien species who can flawlessly imitate anyone would be scary as hell. If I were the US President and had barely survived being assassinated by them, then almost been tricked into starting a nuclear war, I might be a little aggressive too.

The declaration of war on all aliens is insane, though. I suppose the United States has no jurisdiction to attack New Asgard anyway, so it would be a moot point. But an anti-Skrull pogrom in world society is all too believable.

I mean, if they wanted the evil Skrull Empire from the comics, it would have been simple to say that, in the 30 years that passed between Captain Marvel and Secret Invasion, the Skrulls have built themselves back up into a galactic power, but fighting the Kree turned out to be a case of He Who Fights Monsters.

It's also happened in comics too recently w/ the Cotati invasion starting a wave of xenophobia that targeted all aliens, though that one is understandable. Also during Fall of X when Orchis was also planning on going after aliens next once they finish genociding Mutants across Sol System. There's also the fact that Secret Invasion also wound up using alt right talking points about invading refugees and a secret ultra-rich cabal in power manipulating the world in secret who are reptilian/Jewish-coded.

That could've worked too but no they just had to go for invading refugees. Another option that was floated here in another thread was the Skrulls were peacefully living on Earth but were being exposed and put in the most negative light possible by nefarious forces.

Edited by KRider on Feb 15th 2024 at 5:15:20 AM

Which is interesting, because if the original intent was 'no, it's Drogue's guys being pissy about the destruction of their colony and trying to conquer Earth' you've actually got something moderately interesting you can say about refugees versus reactionaries, or different groups of refugees having different interests. The Skrull Emperor demanding to be top dog and a bunch of Skrulls on Earth going...'nah, we've been here for decades and like our lives, screw off,' could have been really interesting. And I agree, the bones of that story are there...

Except that almost requires an actual Skrull civil conflict, which basically doesn't exist. It looks like it's being set up, but then, nope, it's just two Skrulls due to their personal loyalty to Fury and one for revenge because her parents were murdered...

Besides remnants of Droge's administration, other candidates floated here were HYDRA and the Kree and you could've had the dynamics of how rightwing consipracy theorists and jackasses like Tucker Carlson being under the pocket of fascists and/or a hostile and imperialist foreign power.

I'm gonna do the thing I do sometimes and assert that the only reason we care about that particular story is because of the comics. Solely within the context of Secret Invasion, it's believable that Gravik would embark on a personal rebellion against Fury and Talos and recruit a bunch of disaffected Skrulls to his side with the aim of taking Earth for themselves.

The presence of Emperor Dro'ge's colony complicates the story. On the one hand, the Skrulls apparently found a planet that they could settle on, so whatever Carol was doing to "find them a home", she couldn't have been looking very hard. On the other hand, a million Skrulls migrated to Earth so it can't have been that nice a place.

My best guess is that there's an ideological divide between the faction represented by Talos and the faction represented by Dro'ge, so that they weren't on speaking terms, but that's not given much if any evidence by the narrative.

Fundamentally, it's hard to reconcile Secret Invasion with The Marvels unless we accept the fact that they were written by different teams who didn't talk to each other (or weren't allowed to). Ironically, this would create a certain ludonarrative synchronicity with the two groups of Skrulls.

The series also leaves a few other things dangling. The "Skrull council" that Talos was a part of — this must have just been for the ones resident on Earth, right? They don't seem to have any governing power, and if most of them are on Gravik's side, do they just give up the cause after his death?

The ending clearly leaves the door open for a second season in which some of these things get explained, but that seems very unlikely given its reception and the Disney-Marvel shakeup.

Also, I know Fury is good at bullshitting, but if this is set after Secret Invasion, he seems very chipper about things and doesn't seem like he's in a hurry to tell Carol about Talos' death. And where's his Skrull wife?

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 15th 2024 at 8:53:44 AM

I definitely think the anger of the Skrulls in SI (and willingness to conquer Earth) might have worked a bit better if they'd stuck to the original plan of Secret Invasion coming after The Marvels.

Why did they push up SI again?

Dunno. In fact I honestly didn't even know The Marvels was supposed to come 1st until you guys said it.

They didn't push up Secret Invasion; they pushed back The Marvels. This could have been due to the SAG-AFTRA strike, although it didn't stop them from releasing it while the strike was still going on. There were rumors of massive reshoots, so maybe that was it. Or maybe K.E.V.I.N. intervened and told them to change up the sequence of events.

I mean the original Secret Invasion had Gravik setting up WW3 by having Russia invade Ukraine.

...

It also has a bunch of Right Wing writing points.

Oh wow irl events strike again.