Character Perception Evolution cleanup and maintenance

That is also good advice.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

So, this was removed from the Live-Action TV page:

• Rumplestilskin was a unanimous fan-favorite at the start of the show thanks to his genius level of plotting, his tragic backstory, his Affably Evil personality and Robert Carlyle's outstanding performance. As the show went on, however, he became much more divisive. Fans increasingly grew weary of him repeatedly switching sides and subverting many redemption arcs. It also does not help that his relationship with Belle became more toxic despite them still being portrayed as soulmates. With that said, the relatively few viewers who watched the final season generally considered him to be one of the better parts of it, since ironically with Belle taken out of the picture he finally underwent a consistent redemption arc all the way through to its logical conclusion via a Heroic Sacrifice.

The edit reason cited here here was "Misuse, as Rumple is still liked in the earlier episodes and his ultimate resolution appreciated. It's not like Robin Hood where his entire run as a character was retroactively viewed negatively." But the thing is nowhere does it say that the perception has to last forever, there are plenty of a character going from liked to disliked to liked again. I'm not saying re-added the entry but just curious if the perception has to last the whole run or if it can be just for a while before it changes again.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

I mean, it's still a change in perception even if it's a change back, right?

Anyway, I've got a question about an example that breaks the 5-year waiting period:

Devil May Cry 5 is about half a year short of the waiting period (released March 8, 2019), so I was thinking of just cutting that part of the example and ending at the DmC: Devil May Cry portion. Thing is, I don't know how much the DmC example stands on its own; is anyone familiar enough with the series to know how Nero's perception was between DmC and Devil May Cry 5?

I believe it is still a change in perception personally.

I'm not very familiar with Devil May Cry beyond casually playing the fifth game, so I'm afraid that I can't really help there.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 18th 2023 at 3:46:50 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

there we’re definitely people regretting bashing Nero in light of the reboot. For example look at the vindicated by history quotes and you’ll find one

Bumping this because I want more opinions.

She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A

Am I good to re-add the Rumple entry?

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

I think I'd be fine with it.

On another note, I'm not sure I agree with the removal of the Cinder Fall and Adam Taurus entries. The entry indicates they did become more polarizing overall after Season 3, rather than it just being a case of some people not liking the directions the writers took them in.

Going to request consensus on if we can cut two of the entries here, all of which I posted:

• Fallout:
  • The Enclave has had this happen twice. When they were originally introduced in Fallout 2 as the main antagionists, they were viewed as the unambigious villains of the setting due to their genocidal endgoals for the post-apocalyptic world and the implications that much of the fascism and corruption of the pre-War US government originated from them. Come Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas and this view would shift to a more sympathetic and outright apologetic perception. This is due to the introduction of elements of the Enclave around Colonel Augustus Autumn opposing the genocidal goals of President Eden(albeit for arguably pragmatic reasons) combined with the crapsack nature of the Capital Wasteland making many players believe that Autumn's rule would have been preferable in the former, and the introduction sympathetic ex-Enclave remnants such as Arcade Gannon in the latter. Both games increased the desire for future Fallout games to allow the player to join the Enclave among fans. However in recent years, with both American nationalism and capitalism facing increased scrutiny during The New '10s and the rise of leftist ideas, the idea of a sympathetic Enclave or one evil Karma players could join has been increasingly seen to be antithetical to the satirical anti-militarist and anti-consumerist themes of the Fallout franchise. Nowadays, while the Enclave still remains one of the more popular factions in the game, and mods^note the For the Enclave mod for New Vegas, the America Rising mod for Fallout 4, and the Enclave Reborn submod for the Old World Blues Hearts of Iron 4 Mod, two of which feature reformist elements of the Enclave fighting against the more genetic purist elements of the organization allowing players to join them are insanely popular, the idea of the player working with the Enclave in future Fallout games, even as a evil karma route, is much more divisive. Conversely, the Enclave's original Fallout 2 portrayal is seen by those critical of the idea of joining the Enclave as their best portrayal because of the implicit message in that game of how Fascism and ultranationalism should only be fought against and not sugar coated or worked with.
  • When Liberty Prime was first introduced in Fallout 3, he was seen as a badass Large Ham and a very popular Fountain of Memes due to him being the most memorable part of the final push to the purifier and his over-the-top anti-Communist and patriotic quotes. His popularity ultimately led to Bethesda to revive him in Fallout 4 as the Brotherhood of Steel's super weapon. In the second half of The New '10s however, with the Values Resonance of Fallout's satirical themes and the abovementioned rise of leftist politics in America that has led to both a re-assessment of non-totalitarian interpretations of Socialism and more open critique of consumer capitalism has led to Liberty Prime being seen as both everything wrong with Bethesda's supposed move away from Fallout's satirical roots and overtly celebrating excessive right-wing militarism that the games were supposed to criticise. Nowadays, Liberty Prime tends to be more of a Base-Breaking Character with just as many fans critical of his very existence and the existence of a fanbase for him as there are that view him as the one of the best parts of Bethesda's Fallout games.
  • Caesar's Legion in Fallout: New Vegas, while presented as both behind most of the game's atrocities and the least sympathetic of the three factions vying for control over the Mojave, was originally seen by a vocal chunk of players as a morally grey faction with legitimate points against the NCR. This is due to the implications given by some NPCs that Legion territory was relatively safe and orderly and the NCR's more negative aspects being shown in-game. There was a common theory that the Legion being presented as more overtly evil than other factions was due to time constraints preventing the greyer aspects of the faction from being showcased. In recent years, with multiple developers dispelling many of the rumors that the Legion had cut content presenting them as morally grey, a more critical look at many of the Legion's more negative aspects, and the growing perception spurred by leftist gamers that Fallout fans would rather support fascist and ultranationalist factions for being "cool" than consume satirical criticism of these factions properly (which also contributed to scrutiny directed against Enclave fans as well), many fans started aligning with the intended perception of the developers that the Legion was meant to be villainous.

Honestly, looking at these entries, only Caesar's Legion really qualifies. There is a clear apologetic trend in the early days when New Vegas came out based on misinformation about cut content vs. more critical interpretations today.

The Enclave...I think that the people who are really critical of sympathetic interpretations are a extreme Vocal Minority. The Enclave fandom is as strong as ever, the Hearts of Iron IV mod Enclave Reborn Redux is has been in the "Most Popular" tab for weeks now and even the entry I posted notes that there are multiple Enclave-related mods that are very popular. Also from my interactions with Enclave fan circles, I think the consensus is that it is overwhelmingly acknowledged that the Enclave is evil and any "apologia" is mostly tounge-in-cheek, but it would have been a interesting narrative if they were reintroduced with a bit more nuance.

The situation within the Enclave fan circles is honestly like with Sephiroth or the Galactic Empire fan circles, in that accusations and complaints of full-throated apologetic Misaimed Fandom outweigh actual instances of it, but there is a vocal minority that harps on about "apologia" or "people unironically agreeing with fucked up viewpoints".

Liberty Prime, I think is still fondly regarded as a character, at least in 3 and it is the very same Vocal Minority that harps on about Liberty Prime too.

Question about this entry:

• At the time of release, Prince Hans was viewed as one of the more memorable Disney villains to date due to how he took many by surprise with the reveal that he was a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing and a Prince Charmless who sought to usurp the throne of Arendelle and was willing to manipulate and kill Anna and Elsa to achieve his goal, and critics praised the novelty of how he was essentially a corrupt noble straight out of Game of Thrones placed in a Disney movie. As The New '10s went by and audience fatigue from Disney putting more and more twist villains (of which he was one of the first major examples during this time) into their animated films piled up, fans began to put the twist surrounding his character under increased scrutiny, with many now viewing that The Reveal surrounding him could have been foreshadowed and executed much better and that a lot of his actions seemed fairly self-contradictory even when it came to achieving his goals. Many view his sudden turn in personality to be overly exaggerated compared to other villains of his nature frequently seen in Pixar films (and even in-house Disney films like Tarzan, Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Wreck-It Ralph, the latter of which came out a year before Frozen), and his most shocking action of coldly leaving Anna to freeze to death being needlessly sadistic and unnecessary even for a villain like him. Some even view his role in the narrative as superfluous given how the story already had a conflict with Anna trying to stop the blizzard Elsa created and that he merely Stumbled Into the Plot (the fact that Elsa was originally intended to be the villain but was changed later on to be more sympathetic has led some to view him as a poor substitute for her original role). In addition, some fans have argued that he had much better romantic chemistry with Anna than Kristoff given how her interactions with the latter are mostly Belligerent Sexual Tension until the song "Fixer Upper". Even those who do not view him as the worst Twist Villain Disney has put out generally regard him as the start of a disliked and overused trend in Disney films.

This might count but I don't get how the bolded part is relevant because that was always a popular opinion, and I am sure that he has always been controversial. That said I am mainly looking for more opinions on the bolded part as that has always been a popular opinion as far as I know.

Though I should note that in fact Kristoff's role as the love interest is seen in a much more positive light then it was when the film first released. So, maybe an entry for him would be a good idea.

Edited by Bullman on Nov 10th 2023 at 8:41:16 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Can a character count for this trope if a fan work has become an Audience-Coloring Adaptation or would it just be a case of Fanwork-Only Fans?

As an example, the Mewtwo from Pokémon: Genesect and the Legend Awakened (commonly referred to as “Newtwo” by fans) was initially seen as a Replacement Scrappy to the Mewtwo from the Original Series and the first movie thanks to misleading trailers, her very existence being an Ass Pull, and people seeing her character as just a repeat of Mewtwo’s arc. However, in recent years, Newtwo has received a massive increase in popularity thanks to Mew and Mewtwo, and other comics inspired by it, expanding her character and having her interact with the original Mewtwo to the point it seems to have supplemented discussion of her canon version

Edited by Mariofan99 on Nov 18th 2023 at 12:39:37 PM

hello?

Hmm. I guess it could count? The current entry seems like it qualifies if it's true, but someone more versed in the pokemon fandom might know better.

Not sure about Newtwo (her hatedom seems to have died out somewhat but people don't talk about her much anymore) but I feel like fan works can affect or even cause Character Perception Evolution (Nappa and Wabuu would be good examples). I feel like Dartz (Yugioh) might be another example that isn't on the page given people have positively reevaluated him in recent years and the Yugioh Abridged version has been a rather popular.

Also the modern version of The Joker (the Batman villain) is on the page as well but even the entry admits this backlash is mostly a Vocal Minority. He's still liked by most fans and is regarded an iconic character.

Edited by Idisagree on Nov 24th 2023 at 7:03:47 AM

Yeah that entry for joker should go. He's still by far the most popular supervillain in the world.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

For Megamind.

• Hal Stewart, aka Titan/Tighten, always had his fans thanks to his Laughably Evil personality and Jonah Hill's standout performance and used to get a lot of sympathy from the viewers who originally felt that his fall to villainy being the result of kept on getting rejected by his crush, and many interpreted that he was a Nice Guy who let having superpowers go to his head. However, come the rise of the "incel" subculture in the late 2010s, consisting of the Dogged Nice Guy trope have become seen as a lot more problematic in recent years, with the Entitled to Have You mindset often leading to violence and people getting murdered by those whose romantic and/or sexual interest they reject. Since then, Hal going on a rampage after one rejection too many has been looked at as a disturbingly plausible outcome to a certain kind of Dogged Nice Guy gaining superpowers. Notably, this didn't result in people disliking the character, as the reassessment of him instead resulted in Titan becoming seen as a much more effective villain and surprisingly realistic villain otherwise by being a perfect encapsulation of toxic masculinity and male entitlement before such problems became more well-known.

Didn't we need to remove this. Since people have always viewed Hal as creepy. Rather than some reevaluation.

Edited by miraculous on Nov 27th 2023 at 1:38:38 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

I believe you're correct.

Does a character count for this trope if a Video Game Remake improves a character or is that just a straightforward example of Rescued from the Scrappy Heap? For example, in Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire Teams Magma and Aqua, and particularly their leaders from were generally seen as a Replacement Scrappy for Team Rocket with the original game thanks to how interchangeable the two were and how non sensical their goals were. However, the remakes better distinguished the two teams by offering more characterization to their leadership, and the game adjusting/better explaining each of their plans to make the game less of an Idiot Plot.

I think that can totally count, since the change in personalities is really big.

I am unsure. I feel like that might be to close to a sequel Rescued from the Scrappy Heap as it doesn't really feel like the perception of the original character changing but rather just people preferring the new version.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

From the main page:

• Ask Princess Molestia: The titular character, a Memetic Molester variation on Princess Celestia was once a very popular character in the brony community, thanks in part to the sexually charged humor and the artwork provided by John Joseco at the high of his popularity, which led to the blog becoming the longest running and most popular out of all the Ask a Pony blogs. However, increasingly prominent arguments that Black Comedy Rape desensitized people towards, if not outright encouraged, real life acts of sexual violence, along growing concerns towards younger fans coming across unsafe consent online, turned the characters habit of molesting her fellow ponies from hilarious to horrifying for many. This sparked an entire online movement, "Down With Molestia", that was founded to oppose rape jokes in the fandom, and the debates about whether or not the character had went too far would come to overshadow all discussion of the blog from then on. In 2014, John Joseco announced that he would be cancelling the comic and taking it down, which was widely attributed to DWM bringing the comic to the attention of Hasbro. These days, Molestia is regarded as a Discredited Meme at best, and is usually only discussed nowadays as an example of the worst excesses of the Brony community.

This reads more like a Condemned by History example than Character Perception Evolution. The thing is, the CBH thread cut the entry for Ask Princess Molestia because the blog was always controversial. Can CPE apply to characters who were always controversial?

I’m unfamiliar with the work but to me it sounds like the detractors becoming the majority overtime so I’d say it counts

I have a question regarding YMMV.Care Bears and YMMV.Care Bears Adventures In Care A Lot. On the first page, there was quite a lot of complaining about the character of Oopsy Bear, who debuted in AICAL. This complaining seemed like it came from much older fans, as in, old enough that they were grown adults by the time that AICAL was on the air. I was in the target audience when AICAL was on TV, and I always liked Oopsy Bear, and many people nowadays seem to like him as well. Oopsy was ostensibly a Replacement Scrappy for Good Luck Bear, which is why he was hated by certain fans. Due to this, I wonder if it's fair to place Oopsy under CPE - he was deemed a Replacement Scrappy by older fans upon debuting, but he has a much more positive reception nowadays, thanks to the target audience of AICAL growing up and remembering him fondly.

Edited to add comments from Oopsy's wiki page, which are entirely positive

"LET'S FRICKING GOOO! OOPSY'S GONNA BE BACK!" ^note Referring to Oopsy debuting in the Unlock the Magic artstyle

"Too bad he was only able for one show. I wanted him to be in UTM. He's my favorite character in the AICAL series. His clumsiness is also funny. Also, AICAL is a show from my childhood which I watched on Disney Junior (Latin America). And even though he makes big oopsies, It's not on purpose! This character has many accidents but he's still funny and so are his oopsies!"

"Come back, Oopsy! We miss you!!!"

"I don't think he'll come back, from what i've read on TV Tropes, i heard that A LOT of peeps hate him"

(reply to the above) "Well screw them! They don't know what funny characters are!"

"I love everything about him and I hope he gets a new toy in the current series at some point, he deserves it."

"I miss this guy so much, I really hope he returns in Ut M. If Wonderheart could return in Ut M, Oopsy should be able to return too"

"HE'S SO ADORABLE!!!"

"Help this man my new comfort/kin sona"

"I've been wondering for years why he wasn't inroduced the older movies,or even in the newer shows or movies cause he should be able to conttinue to be in the future shows and movies :s poor oopsy "

(reply to the above) "Yeah, I would like to see a comeback."

"A mí también me gustaría su regreso"^Translation I would also like his return

"i miss him :( he's a precious cinnamon roll and he needs to be protected at all costs."

"I Miss You Oopsy!"

"I miss Oopsy, I REALLY wish he could be in the new show. If he was in it, maybe Wonderheart would stop feeling so left out and realize some bears are less fortunate than her. Also he has the voice of Rainbow Dash!"

Edited by sudrictoon on Dec 16th 2023 at 2:30:06 PM

We are the best friends, we stand as one. Whatever life may bring, we are never alone.

Ok, so if I understand this right:

Character Perception Evolution is about characters who are initially seen as good or bad characters (in term of audience liking of them, not morality) but then consumers of the media/fans reevaluate their judgment of them over time one way or another, and this neither has nothing to do with new content of the character being released or, if it does have to do with no content, the new content prompts a realization that the character had been good/bad all along.

Rescued from the Scrappy Heap is when a character is considered bad but new material appears where the character is considered good which makes people evaluate the character better, while still believing the old material was bad.

So why don't we have a "positive to negative" version of Rescued from the Scrappy Heap? Where a character's later appearances make them evaluated far worse, while it's still acknowledged that the original appearances were good? Sometimes it might match with Character Derailment, though I don't think it always will.

Uh well you see whenever thats proposed it gets shot down in tlp for being a complaint magnet. Which is why this has to be both positive and negative opinions.

In fact we did have something but it was removed for being complaining.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."