Character Perception Evolution cleanup and maintenance

I was responding to what Bull said; I didn't even see that you had removed anything. Mostly I was talking in the most general sense here, not about the specific example at hand but to the general idea of "we shouldn't discuss the actors".

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 2nd 2023 at 12:18:16 PM

I didn't remove the example. I removed that part.

I edited my post. (And since my own post had specifically mentioned rejecting examples and not just removing bits of it, you can see why I got confused as like I said I didn't even know you had done anything. I'd missed the context of the discussion and was more concerned about the general "discussing an actor" topic)

Like I said I am cool with mentioning actors, but just wouldn't personally if I was writing an entry.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 2nd 2023 at 11:22:04 AM

My stance is that behind-the-scenes info is fine to include, provided it actually affects how the character is seen. I don't think the allegations against Roiland really affected the way people thought of Lemongrab, and even if they did, said allegations only broke this year so the mention in Lemongrab's entry have to be removed regardless.

While we're at it, I think the mention of the allegations against YandereDev should also be removed, considering general opinion had turned against against Mida Rana even before they broke, and also because they're recent enough that they'd be against the "5-year rule" either way.

So do we keep the Tommy Oliver entry the same as it is right now (mentioning JDF's poor acting, but not the allegations of how he stole leadership of the Power Rangers), or do we delete either of those facets or his posthumanous popularity?

And where would that put The Nostalgia Critic? The entire entry for his portrayal in To Boldly Flee is predicated on the idea that Doug Walker used the character to boost his ego and not thinking about how retiring the character would effect his co-workers' lively.

Edited by Mariofan99 on Oct 2nd 2023 at 8:03:04 AM

We have to delete the stuff about his death either way as it hasn't been five years since that affected the perception of him. The acting part is okay to keep but delete the whole leadership thing if that is based only on rumors.

The Nostalgia Critic I say keep as that is the reason he is viewed differently now.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 2nd 2023 at 6:57:46 AM

Sorry for the double post but I wanted opinions on these entries:

• The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney): Clopin initially stood out as one of the movie's stand-out characters due to his eccentric yet badass personality and a show-stopping performance by Paul Kandel. However, more than twenty years after the movie's release, the character's reputation began to slip from Ensemble Dark Horse to Base-Breaking Character as some fans of the movie began to question how noble and altruistic Clopin really was. A lot of this was due to several scenes where his morally ambiguous characterization is really highlighted, such as when he seemingly sets up Quasimodo for humiliation in the Feast of Fools sequence, and then later nearly executing Quasimodo and Phoebus in the Court of Miracles, thinking they're Frollo's spies, without giving either of them a chance to explain themselves (though, granted, he was motivated by protecting everyone in the Court of Miracles). While Clopin still has many fans to this day, you do get a lot more people declaring him to be Unintentionally Unsympathetic and potentially as bad as Frollo.

I have never seen the opions on him change and I have definitely never seen anyone seriously claim he was "as bad as Frollo". Though I coul be wrong.

• Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull: For the longest time after the movie's release, Mutt Williams was regarded as an unnecessary and annoying Kid Hero who pulled off insane and ridiculous feats and was generally unlikeable, and many were not happy when it was revealed that he's Indy's son. However, in the many years since 2008, Mutt has started to cultivate a growing fanbase of supporters within the Indiana Jones fandom who see him as an eager-to-learn youngster not too dissimilar from a younger Indy who still has enough unique character traits to make him stand out, like his skills at fencing and Greaser aesthetic which his father didn't have. The same people also like to point out that Mutt brings out aspects of Henry Sr. in Indy, making for some really fun History Repeats drama between them. By the 2020s, Mutt had enough supporters that a sizable portion of the fanbase was upset when Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, most likely due to friction surrounding Shia LaBeouf, revealed that Mutt had died in Vietnam.

I am not an expert on the Indiana Jones fandom, but he still seems to be mostly hated in my experience and looking around online I see no actual change in fandom perception.

Do these actually count?

I feel like it's less a case of fans growing to like Mutt, and more fans disliking the Happy Ending Override in Dial of Destiny.

In general, Dial of Destiny came out in 2023, so this entry might be a bit too early.

I wouldn't say Clopin is less popular than he used to be, per se, but from my own personal experiences, more morally ambiguous interpretations of him have been getting more prominent, though I haven't seen many actually claiming he's as bad as Frollo. Personally, I think the entry could be rewritten; maybe I'll take a tack at it.

I've never seen anyone say he's as bad as Frollo. I've also never seen anyone champion him as some genuinely heroic character. He's very clearly an Anti-Hero who does jerkish or cruel things at times. Like... who thought he was altruistic and noble to begin with?

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 3rd 2023 at 3:16:36 PM

I've never watched Hunchback so I can't comment on Clopin but does the five year rule mean we can't have Mutt until 2028?

Not necessarily because his film happened way more than five years? Its just how the latest movie affected his perception that we can't mention.

Was Clopin ever considered heroic or altruistic beforehand because I have never seen that either?

Can't comment on the Indiana Jones issue, but the Clopin entry seems really overstated to me. Like, the morally ambiguous things he did were always front-and-centre in the film. I always assumed that you were supposed to see him as an Anti-Hero, if basically sympathetic.

EDIT: Also, I'd really like to see who considers him "as bad as Frollo." When does Clopin do anything remotely as bad as ethnic cleansing and attempted rape?

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Oct 6th 2023 at 5:13:13 AM

Yeah, exactly. I always liked him because he was a morally ambiguous jokester. I'm not sure what the example is saying.

Yeah I have never seen anyone ever call him totally heroic and have definitely never seen all say he is as bad as Frollo.

Should I cut both of the entries?

I’d say cut both. Maybe Mutt could qualify one day but I feel for now it’s more people upset about the Happy Ending Override as people previously said on this thread

Also a bit befire this thread was created this entry was removed for not counting as CPE, and while maybe it could use rewording (espically since it skims over DDD) I feel the entry has merit id I understand the trope definition correctly

• Master Xehanort, who upon the release of Birth by Sleep, was praised as the best villain in the series due to his Affably Evil demeanor, his massive Xanatos Gambit pulled over the course of the game, having a The Chessmaster role that directly tied into the at the time widely anticipated Kingdom Hearts III, and amazing performances by both Chikao Ohtsuka and Leonard Nimoy. However, in recent years, it is easy to find fans calling him out for being indirectly responsible for the infamous Kudzu Plot, often criticized for being an Invincible Villain, and contributing to several Retcons and Ass Pulls. His reception was soured even further after the release of Kingdom Hearts III and Dark Road, both of which attempted to paint Xehanort in a sympathetic light to varying degrees. The former revealed that he was actually a Well-Intentioned Extremist who detested the darkness all along and was attempting to restore balance by wiping out the world and starting anew. Many fans called this out for being a large Motive Decay that largely contradicted his characterization in games prior. The latter game would reveal that Xehanort had been manipulated during his adolescence and was driven to becoming a villain due to the death of his friends pushing him down that path, which some fans found to be a poor Freudian Excuse that attempted to rationalize his actions and make him more sympathetic.

Okay I removed them.

Yeah I am okay with adding that back.

Remember to cut both on the ymmv pages too

I checked and strangely neither where at their respective YMMV pages.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 7th 2023 at 11:43:20 AM

Bad crosswicking strikes again

I'll add back Xehanort once I can think of a way to add DDD without making it too long

I'm not sure Sylvanas fits this trope.

Like Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts, it isn't so much people re-evaluating Sylvanas earlier actions, but people being alienated by her actions in Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands, which were agreed to be too early to discuss.

Sylvanas the Dark Lady's replacement, Calia the White Lady, is also rather unpopular thus far, with many fans clamoring for Sylvanas return or wishing the whole storyline with her in BFA to Shadowlands hadn't happened.

Also I feel the Tingle entry should be re-done as nowdays, most western Zelda fans are neutral to positive to Tingle. Much of this is thanks to better understanding of what he is a parodying and experiencing his well received video games for the Nintendo DS due to emulation making them available to Americans.

Tingle was a parody of Otaku, but alot of western fans didn't understand this and viewed him as a creep of some sort.

RE: Bullman

The Clopin thing could be rewritten, he's just a bit of a jerk at worst. Maybe it could say people are starting to appreciate Clopin more now due to him being a rare morally grey character in a Disney film?

I don't know if this is related to Character Perception Evolution, but a lot of recent plays do play about Clopin being a Justified Criminal whom had to become a thief to survive and wants to improve the lives of everyone on the streets of Paris.

Edited by Monsund on Oct 7th 2023 at 5:54:36 AM

If it's accurate, then sure, Clopin's entry can be rewritten to cover that.