Snoot Game cleanup

Partly because that's not accurate.

The school shooting doesn't happen because of Fang's gender identity. It happens after Fang, who was already shown to have dangerously misanthropic feelings about everyone around them (see: the weeds analogy in the gardening scene), was publicly humiliated and then learned that the one good relationship they had to lean on (Anon) was just part of someone's plan to try and change them.

Huh. Surprisingly, I checked and all it describes is Fang "looking like a junkie"◊. Drug use may be implied, but it's not actually stated. Although, early in the story, Anon sees Fang in the hall a few days after the concert and thinks to himself “What the hell? Why is she scratching herself? Is she a junkie?” The scratching was probably due to nervousness, or it might be hinting at Fang's self-harm "preening".

In my opinion Snoot Game is anti-LGBT, the game's bad endings literally involve the non-binary character staying non-binary and explicitly attributes that to why they're bad endings for her. I do know someone who played the game and enjoyed it while acknowledging and not condoning the problematic message for what that's worth.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Oct 6th 2023 at 3:57:40 PM

... Yeah, no. It's laughable to think that we're missing vital context that changes the accuracy or the message of a game that was literally created as a spiteful parody of an LGBT game with a non-binary protagonist; a parody in which there is a good ending where they realise "I'm not non-binary at all! That was just crazy mental illness talk!" and go on to live their best life, and another in which they remain non-binary and then shoot up their school and kill themselves. Any attempt at all to frame this as "No no no, it's not anti-LGBT, there's actually a lot of very important context that you're missing!" just comes across as damage control from someone who recognizes the incredibly clear and blatant message that the game is trying to deliver, but does not want to admit it.

In the interest of remaining fair I disagree that the context is unimportant. While yes one of the endings where Fang remains Non-Binary being one where she commits mass murder is very clearly meant to imply that being Non-Binary is bad, it should be noted that the game doesn't literally attribute it solely to being Non-Binary.

Oh, I... kind of agree? In terms of any arguments over the nitty-gritty details. It's more that in terms of the overarching message of the game; and the intention of the developers when delivering that message.

a) "one of the endings where Fang remains Non-Binary being one where she commits mass murder is very clearly meant to imply that being Non-Binary is bad." Yup, that's... spot on about what the developers intended to imply.

b) "it should be noted that the game doesn't literally attribute it solely to being Non-Binary." Well, even's if it's not attributed solely, then the fact that a mass-shooting and suicide is attributed partly to a character being Non-Binary is still... immensely gross, bigoted and disgusting.

I'm more arguing against the idea that the game is a complex, multi-layered - like onions, or Ogres - work of media with several potential messages but none of them strictly rooted in bigotry. It's blatantly just a spiteful anti-LGBT screed. And on that note, we probably shouldn't have 'Heartwarming Moments' pages for extremely anti-LGBT works.

"a parody in which there is a good ending where they realise "I'm not non-binary at all! That was just crazy mental illness talk!" and go on to live their best life"

Fang only says anything close to that in ending 3, where she overreacts, cuts out all her friends, and becomes a passive and unfulfilled tradwife. In ending 4, the one that actually involves Fang "living her best life", all Fang says about her gender identity is "I'm not actually enbie, Anon." He asks if he can call her his girlfriend, she says he always could, and then they move on and it doesn't really come up again.

I'm not going to deny that the story suggests that nonbinary people might just be going through a phase. But it doesn't need to get overstated so severely that the game is treated like Birth of a Nation.

"then the fact that a mass-shooting and suicide is attributed partly to a character being Non-Binary is still... immensely gross, bigoted and disgusting."

Like I already said, the game doesn't actually attribute it to that. It's only the case if you take the overly simplistic correlation = causation attitude

"I'm more arguing against the idea that the game is a complex, multi-layered - like onions, or Ogres - work of media with several potential messages but none of them strictly rooted in bigotry. It's blatantly just a spiteful anti-LGBT screed."

Unfortunately, nuance exists. It does have several potential messages, some positive, but also a few that are anti-NB. Reducing it to "just a spiteful anti-LGBT screed" or "extremely anti-LGBT" makes for an easy black-and-white narrative but it's just not accurate.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 6th 2023 at 4:11:17 AM

It is entirely accurate to suggest that the fan-game originating on 4chan in response to a visual novel with a Non-Binary protagonist that had not even come out yet, in which the good endings unilaterally involve them realising that they are not Non-Binary and going on to better things, and the bad endings result in them remaining Non-Binary and going on to shoot up a school and kill themselves/become a miserable jaded drug-addicted failure who never amounts to anything, is in fact an anti-LGBT screed, and any attempt to seriously suggest otherwise is both laughable and patently dishonest.

I mean, yeah it's important to remember that works like these aren't just going to blatantly play their hand. They want to get people playing/reading them and absorbing the subtext without outright saying that, say, being LGBT is stupid and wrong. The game may not outright claim that Fang being non-binary is ruining their life, but that's what the subtext of the endings is.

Like, I agree — it's important to stay nuanced and to not see everything as black and white. But it's also important to be aware of dogwhistling and how a story's subtext and implications can paint a clear picture without the creator ever openly saying a word.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 6th 2023 at 5:20:58 AM

I feel like that can be an easy cop-out when it comes to analyzing a work. It's like starting from the conclusion that it's hate speech, and then interpreting every problematic aspect in the worst possible light.

Especially considering that 4chan's interest in GVH mainly appears to have stemmed from users being attracted to Fang and making fan art. It's a mixed bag of picking on it for the LGBT representation and furries who genuinely liked the characters.

It comes across more like the bigotry is a side effect of the attitudes of the developers, rather than than main point of the story.

I do think we should explicitly state that it being one of two endings where Fang stays Non-Binary is the one where she commits a school shooting was meant to imply that being Non-Binary makes someone a dangerous, unstable lunatic, albeit with a note stating the context so its not like they outright say it.

I wouldn't say it's a cop out. I've been lurking and listening to every argument, but it jumps out to me that it's only on the bad endings where Fang identifies as non-binary. You can call it a coincidence or say that there's a deeper subtext about Fang not really actually being non-binary, but that in and of itself seems like a writing copout to imply that non-binary people are just confused, pressured, or, in the worst case scenario, actively dangerous to themselves and others. The game presents being non-binary as the inherently worse outcome because it's associated with bad things happening to Fang and others.

I certainly wouldn't say that this is just me starting from a point of assumed bigotry, because I'm usually not one to do that. I'm usually the one arguing that something may not be as bad as how others are making it out to seem.

I can't do that here.

It's important to point out that the whole reason why the school shooting is even part of the game is because of a shitpost drawing that was made the day after the first trailer, in which Fang shoots up the school while saying "Goodbye, Volcano High!" They took this premise and used it as the bad ending of the game.

Early brainstorming seemed to follow the outline of Bad ending = school shooting; Neutral ending = Fang and Anon break up; Good ending = Fang becomes Anon's wife.

In context, it really seems more like the concept of a school shooting stems entirely from Fang looking really edgy. Fang no longer being NB is more a consequence of wanting them to become Anon's wife in the good ending.

Rewrites would soon make the "tradwife" ending more bittersweet, and a better ending was added where Fang doesn't reject being NB so hard, but still goes back to identifying as female and getting together with Anon.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 6th 2023 at 5:00:52 AM

That doesn't really matter though? A school shooting ending could still theoretically happened in a scenario where Fang decided they weren't Non-Binary while still being humiliated and whatnot. A marriage ending could still theoretically happen in an ending where Fang remains non-binary.

I don't care at all that in one ending Fang shoots up the school. It's dark edgelord bullshit, but it doesn't factor in to why I think the game is bigoted. It's the fact that these bad endings are linked to Fang being an enby. You can't ignore that clear elephant in the room.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 6th 2023 at 5:59:34 AM

That's a valid criticism. My main problem is taking it a step further and alleging that the anti-NB theme is the whole point of the game. Taken as a whole and with context behind its creation, it really seems to me like that's only one part of it, even if it is definitely problematic.

I agree with unfortunate implications of the game, but reducing all of the game to it's simply being "anti-LGBT" and only that is kinda reductive, there are more themes in the game and bonus chapters add to that. Saying that the game shouldn't have "Heartwarming" or "Tear Jerking" pages because of this is kinda reactionary, since it's also kinda assumes that all of these moments will be some bigoted shit, when the game has more stuff going on, especially for, what is essentially, a shitpost.

So, who should i ask if i can make Heartwarming and Tear Jerking pages for the game? Since it doesn't seem that it can be decided in this thread.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Oct 6th 2023 at 1:08:59 PM

I feel like there's an inconsistency between trying to argue that any of the extremely open displays of bigotry - both in the game itself and in the clear motivations of the developers - are nuanced and require deeper analysis before rushing to any conclusions... while also admitting that the bad ending is apparently based on an edgelord joke from a shitpost the day after the trailer came out. It's extremely nuanced and requires multi-layered examination, but it's also a shitpost which is why you shouldn't take the 'Being enby will (partly) make you shoot up your school and kill yourself' aesop so seriously.

I mean, two things; first, maybe the anti-NB thing really is the main theme of the game - I mean, it seems to be the driving point of the plot and everything else is either less important or a branching result of it - but also, if there are only two themes in the game, and one of them is 'furry art good!' and the other is 'being enby bad!' then even if the author is intending to give both of those statements equal billing, then... one of them is a lot more notable and demands more attention than the other! And should probably be mentioned much more prominently when describing the work.

EDIT: Should probably clarify, when I say this work shouldn't have a Heartwarming Moments page, it's not under the assumption that any Heartwarming Moment is automatically bigoted as well, it's more the message it sends "Hey, this anti-LGBT Fix Fic in which being enby is a driving factor in someone shooting up their school also has some really heartwarming moments!" By God, no. Nope. Nada. That's... that's not okay.

Edited by Elmo3000 on Oct 6th 2023 at 11:30:20 AM

Yeah, the notion we need to give the anti-nonbinary bigotry of a game made out of spite a fair nuanced reading because one cis guy has convinced himself that all the lgbtq people in the thread were overreacting is unbelievable. The game is an anti-nonbinary, borderline propagandistic screed from 4chan, and any honest representation will take that into account

This is the kind of thing I'm objecting to. "Being enby will make you shoot up your school" is a bad-faith caricature of its LGBT themes.

Fang identifying as NB is not presented as the source of the problem. The story portrays it as something that Fang clings onto to try and find validation because she feels she doesn't have an identity. Fang becomes a more realized person, and then abandons the NB identity because it was a crutch.

That in itself is still problematic. But it's not attributing Fang's problems to being nonbinary.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 6th 2023 at 5:28:14 AM

That's a distinction without a difference and I think you know that

In that case it's just portraying enbies as needing a crutch because their confused, which... yeah isn't much better.

And don't get me wrong, it's not impossible for someone to mistake their gender identity or cling to something before having self-actualization and discovering who they really are. But the game is very clearly linking "Fang's happiness and self-worth" with "Fang realizing they weren't non-binary" — and thus linking unhappiness and confusion with being non-binary.

It's an important distinction because it makes the difference between "a work with problematic themes" and "a hateful propaganda screed".

Not necessarily. Something can be hateful propaganda without being outright blatant about it.

But I'm not even necessarily saying that it's what the game is. I'm open to, though skeptical of, the idea that maybe the game's themes really weren't meant to be the driving force in creating it. (Though thus far there's no evidence that convinces me to believe this is true, and I'm far more likely to agree that it is in fact propaganda)

What I'm saying is that this downplaying of the obvious subtext and attitude towards being non-binary has to stop.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 6th 2023 at 6:36:42 AM

x4 'its LGBT themes' - it doesn't have any LGBT themes other than 'LGBT bad' and connecting them to both shooting up a school or turning into a washed up junkie.

It's not nuanced, it's not complicated, there is no outside context that transforms 'being enby is a driving factor in making this character want to shoot up their school' into a non-hateful aesop.

There's also the fact that the ending where she commits the mass murder is one of the two where she stays non-binary while in the other one she ends up a drug addicted shell. At best that is extremely negligent Unfortunate Implications, at worst it is intentionally conflating the non-binary "self delusion" with being dangerously unstable enough to be a school shooter.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Oct 6th 2023 at 6:42:51 AM

Sorry, but I don't think I'm downplaying it all that much. People see "4chan" and immediately assume the worst and most hateful attitudes are behind it.

That's been said a dozen times in this thread already, and it's still the only connection in the game between gender identity and the bad endings. Correlation. The shooter ending only has that unfortunate implication if you trim out the actual story and just leave fragments of the outline. At that point we might as well be playing "Describe your favorite movie as poorly as possible".

I get that I'm in the vast minority on this forum when it comes to opinions on this game, and I'm probably wrong about a number of things. But I find a lot of arguments against this game are flawed and need to be challenged. So far I think you've put forward some much stronger points than earlier in the thread where the plot of the game was being misrepresented as "convincing Fang to stop being nonbinary".

The biggest problems seem to lie in the subtext of the game, and I'm more comfortable with that analysis, even if I don't agree with all of it. But I think the subtext has more wiggle room for interpretation, especially if Death of the Author is taken into consideration.

Edited by Boredman on Oct 6th 2023 at 6:06:29 AM