Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Lizzid people!
Since I didn't see anyone claim it, decided to do the EP.
What is the work?
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is the latest entry in the Marvel Cinematic Universe featuring Shuri as the Black Panther. As a result of real-life circumstances regarding the death of Chadwick Boseman, T'Challa succumbs to an unidentifiable illness due to the heart-shaped flowers being destroyed by his cousin in the previous film.
Shuri, next in line to the throne, is at first hesitant about taking such a task and deemed the Black Panther as "old news." At least until she finds herself in the center of conflict with another country.
Who is the candidate?
Namor is the king of an underwater kingdom called Talokan, descended from the Yucata Mayans having acquired his ability to breathe underwater from his ancestors ingesting a substance. While fulfilling his mother's request to be buried in her homeland, he is horrified by the cruelty of the surface world and vows to hide away his people and kingdom.
This would be the case until an American crew tries to harvest vibranium in an underwater deposit. Namor and his people kill the crew which sparks controversy with nations turning against Wakanda due to their belief that the country was responsible.
Learning that the American government had acquired the invention used for the harvest from a student named Riri Williams, Namor intercepts Wakanda's advanced security system to offer Ramonda and Shiri an ultimatum: either they hand over the girl so he could have her executed, or Talokan will wage war with Wakanda.
After the deaths of two of his people, Namor declares war on Wakanda and floods the city leading to Ramonda's death. As the war is waged, Shuri tries to trap Namor by taking advantage of his weaknesses and succeeds at cutting off one of his wings on his ankles. However, she was unable to deliver the killing blow realizing that doing so would not end the fighting.
Namor issues a surrender revealing to his cousin that it was an elaborate move on his end. Now that the country of Wakanda was pushed into a corner, they would be forced to ally with Talokan when the time came.
Is he magnificent?
Unlike Killmonger, Namor truly loves his people and heritage such as taking the time to close the eyes of two of his slain servants and mourn over them. Despite waging war on Wakanda, Namor initially had some respect for Shuri even offering her life advice she was coping with the death of her brother. Even when he was intent on executing Riri, Namor treats her no less different than he did Shuri.
Is he a Baddie?
Him being an anti-villain aside, he still kills an entire American crew, and Wakanda was framed for the terrorist attack. He tries to execute a teenager for the invention and floods Wakanda and was indirectly responsible for the death of Ramonda. And he ultimately planned on flooding the surface world.
Edited by AustinDR on Jan 21st 2023 at 2:58:25 AM
I don't remember if anyone else said they were gonna do Namor, so yeah. Probably fair to do the EP.
Not gonna put the vote in now since I was reminded we gotta wait 24 hours over on CM. Sorry about that.
Good to be back!
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 16th 2023 at 12:54:13 PM
Professor Gigachad
Again Future you can't vote on the proposal until 24 hours have passed, those are the rules.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Not the Eye
Um, future, we aren’t allowed to vote on ep until 24 hours have passed.
I took my vote out here too. All apologies. I'll read each OP to educate myself on the rules and make sure I don't break any.
Could Curtis Danko count? He has the town infested with the zombies and forces everyone to city hall to see his statue—that they're all convinced will kill them—so he can reveal that he never cursed the town to begin with. Is that bad enough?
Anyone else seen it?
Since Namor is the only one with an EP right now, gonna try my new style. If you guys wants me to do one with the more common EP template instead though, I will of course. In the meantime:
- Work: So yeah, in the 2022 show Wednesday, the titular Addams teen is attending a boarding school for other special teens with unique abilities—"outcasts"—and while adjusting to the changes in her environment, discovers a creature is running amok and killing people for their body parts—which she takes upon herself to start investigating.
- Preemptive writeup:
- Uncle Fester Addams is a stealthy and eccentric criminal mastermind and the most beloved and respected of the Addams Family by Wednesday herself—having taught her all she knows. Fester has successfully performed numerous high stakes robberies and heists everywhere he's gone while also evading authorities and even endangering some in the process. He's also traveled in a pet grooming disguise to constantly be "incognito" as well. In his one appearance, he helps Wednesday with her investigation while providing the info that the creature is a Hyde and then uses his electricity absorbing abilities to save a seriously wounded Thing by means of defibrillation.
- Other information: He is talked about being a notorious criminal before he even appears in the show—his appearance is in the penultimate episode of the season, it's shown how he hides and he travels and he has knowledge that definitely proves helpful too—and Wednesday's skills being full-blown shown and that Fester was her mentor definitely shows and speaks to his own capabilities.
- Magnificent: Not socially-awkward, proves a quick thinker, has impressive physical skills and is still continuing his highly-successful criminal career by the time he's gone (and there's also saving Thing after he's IMPALED TO THE WALL WITH A KNIFE HOLY SHIT using his electricity-absorbing powers—which also makes up for him having kind of left Thing high and dry on a job at one point).
- Bastard/Too Much: Thief constantly pulling jobs and endangering lives, but never seeks to actively hurt people and clearly loves his family of course.
Verdict removed for the time being.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 16th 2023 at 2:10:13 AM
What's the Work?
Daredevil is a Game Boy Advance tie-in game to 2003 Daredevil movie. Having little to nothing in common with the movie (aside from screenshots at the start and the end of the game) the game follows it's own plot, which is non-canonical to the movie (as Bullseye is still alive and there are supervillains, that never appeared in the movie). The plot is kickstarted by The Kingpin, who put a bountry on Daredevil's head, resulting in Daredevil having to defend himself against multiple gangs and villains, as he tries to put a stop to Kingpin's plan.
Full walkthrough of the game can be watched here:
My candidate is The Kingpin.
Who is The Kingpin?
The Kingpin, aka Wilson Fisk, is the main, who secretly behind most of the crime in New York City. Starting the game by putting a bountry on Daredevil's head, The Kingpin brainwashed Elektra to believe that Daredevil works for him, resulting in them fighting, until he breaks her brainwashing. After Daredevil defeated several gangs, The Kingpin claimed that he hired Daredevil to do that, which everybody believes and that resulted in even more criminals hunting down and trying to kill Daredevil.
After Daredevil defeated them all, he decided to put a stop to this and goes to The Kingpin's base, where he confronted him and at first fights his robots and then him. After some battle, The Kingpin reveals that he used Daredevil to eliminate his rivals and completely take over the criminal underworld in New York City. Pointing out that Daredevil has no proof of his involvement in what happened, The Kingpin agreed to publicly "break off" his deal with Daredevil, making him leave, as he remains undefeated in the end.
Is He Magnificent?
For a GBA game, i say he is smart enough, manipulating everyone, including Daredevil to eliminate his rivals and then having all criminals trying to hunt down Daredevil, due to believing he works for Fisk, and remaining undefeated in the end, does make him smart enough and his dialogue gives him polite and smart tone, which gives him enough personality to count.
Is he a bastard?
While he is a bad guy, he is very generic in his evil, all his evil deeds are trying to kill the hero and framing him, and this being non-canon to Daredevil movie means he did none of the evil stuff that Kingpin did there.
Conclusion?
What do you think?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 16th 2023 at 1:22:43 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hey, a film I saw! Not as good as the first, and a bit overlong, but still very good.
My issue with Namor is, when attacking and killing Ramonda, he almost seems like TOO MUCH of a bastard.
Edited by ACW on Jan 16th 2023 at 6:11:41 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Room for one more. Imma post my duo from my recent release work before getting to the stuff I'm really excited for!
What's Scar doing this time?
I'll be brief on this one since it's really just the difference at the end that gives him enough distinction to count. He's the same Sympathetic Murderer traumatized by the war in Ishval we all know and love. Kimblee slaughtered his friends, big bro and took his arm before he woke up in the Rockbell's medical tent and killed them in his confusion. Hunting down the State Alchemists responsible for the genocide, Scar kills ten of them across the country before coming into conflict with the Elric brothers. He nearly gets the drop on them but gets interrupted by Mustang and co.; later is revealed to Winry as her parents' killer; strikes up an Odd Friendship with the adorable May Chang and we get a divergence when Al uses May to track Scar back to their hideout.
In combat with Ed, Scar tricks him by seemingly using his common escape tactic to destroy the floor but when nabbed by Al reveals he set the whole building to collapse. Even though he fights well, the Elrics eventually overwhelm and restrain him. Winry arrives to treat his wounds despite her anger as she knows it's what her parents would want her to do. Fully expecting no forgiveness, Scar nevertheless apologizes for her parents' deaths and shows he means it when he saves her from a rampaging Gluttony.
From here on out he's pretty well become a straight Anti-Hero, helping use his brother's research notes to stop Father's plan, fighting and killing Wrath/Bradley and ending the trilogy set to help build a new Amestris.
Actions and personality?
It's Scar: he's philosophical, tragic, brilliant and tricky. Never been a problem here and isn't one now.
Mitigating factors?
Slight but he's got a new setup at the end to trick the brothers and his bit saving Winry and winning redemption is different.
Verdict?
Easy keep.
Who in Lin(g) Yao? What has he done?
The charming, roguish 12th Prince of Xing, Lin is met on a train by the Elrics where he happily steals Ed's food. Realizing they're alchemists when the train is hijacked by terrorists, Lin has Foo and Lanfun attack the brothers, trying to force them to give him the secrets of the Philosopher's Stone even at the expense of preventing them from saving the train: even having Lanfun chuck bombs at Ed. He departs after Envy shows up, ecstatic at meeting an immortal and hurrying off to go and try to capture him.
Later revealing his backstory to Ed and Al, Lin explains he means to discover the secret of immortality and gain favor from his ailing father, the Emperor of Xing, before using the secrets he discovers to take the throne by force. Despite his harsh outlook, Lin cares greatly for his people and when his attempts to capture the Homunculi Gluttony are interrupted by the arrival of Gluttony's sibling Furher Bradley/Wrath, he makes a point of saving the injured Lanfun, disgusted with the apathy shown by Bradley along the way.
His plan to take the restrained Gluttony back to his father only failing when the enraged monster's hatred of Mustang—his sister Lust's killer—allows him to break free. Lin flees to gather up Ed, Al, Mustang and co. but the beast injures Mustang, who falls back alongside Hawkeye and Winry. Battling Envy and Gluttony with Ed, Lin, Ed and Envy wind up eaten by Gluttony, the film ending with Envy unveiling his true form inside Guttony's Eldritch Location stomach void.
As per the original, he's made a vessel for Greed in the last movie, persuades the rebellious Homunculus into helping stop Father and winds up with a Philosopher's Stone to take back to Xing.
Actions and personality?
It's Lin, he's chummy and fun even when being a jerk to Ed and a cunning swindler both in the mundane as well as devious plotting to usurp the throne from his father. He cares for his people but he's going to get power even if that means fighting the Elrics in the middle of a train robbery or outright planning a coup.
Mitigating factors?
Dude's a straight up Guile Hero in the original but the few flairs above make him dark enough here.
Verdict?
Amusingly surprising keep.
I think that's two EPs posted at once, 43110.
TRS Wick Cleaning
Same work, this was discussed in restart.
Edited by 43110 on Jan 18th 2023 at 9:15:50 AM
For those asking... no, Namor is definitely not too evil. He's a Well-intentioned extremist with a sad backstory whose goal is to protect his people and country. Yes, he's violent but he's 100% an Anti-Villain. He only even attacks Wakanda after seeing two of his own people die to Nakia and we are given a scene of him genuinely mourning them.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
So, I am guessing by tomorrow things will move quicker but for now we are at the EP limit. So my Wednesday one will have to wait until the next page.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
RIP Toriyama
Yeah, Namor is not remotely too evil IMO, especially by the overall standards of the MCU. He should be an easy-peasy Keep at the end of the day.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I agree that Namor is not to evil.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 16th 2023 at 9:02:28 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Agreed, no questions about that one atm.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Who is handling Black Adam? Lighty right? Because if he can't anymore mind if I take a crack at it.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 16th 2023 at 9:04:34 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Fully agree that Namor isn't too evil to qualify
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
The Moron
I believe he does intend to cover Black Adam at some point during his backlog
Man in the Yellow Hat
While I was watching the show, I did briefly think about Fester being an MB and was uncertain, but thinking about it, the fact he evades capture through his whole episode, seemingly did this before, and taught Wednesday everything she knew (thus being behind her smarts), he's probably smart enough, at least for a one episode character.
Namor doesn't sound like he had problems besides heinousness, and pretty sure he snuck into Wakanda undetected, so he seems to keep.
Edit: Okay, with what Riley mentioned, definitely sounds like Namor counts, especially since he wins with his surrender.
Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Jan 16th 2023 at 10:20:38 AM
He/Him
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah. I figured he called it like him did on the CM.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 16th 2023 at 9:11:00 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The other major thing that makes Namor magnificent: He himself outright states that his surrender to Shuri is part of a calculated plan to earn the sympathies of Wakanda and push them into a corner so that when they inevitably need help they come to Talokan. It's a pretty straightforward The Bad Guy Wins ending in that regard, so it's not as though he lacks planning.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Riley: I agree that Namor is magnificent for that.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 16th 2023 at 9:13:04 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Good addition to his rapsheet Riley.
Yeah I'd say Namor ticks all the boxes with ease.
Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM