Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
All the writeups on the Drafts are good to go.
And seconding what Lighty said about Black Panther 2. Namor is probably heinous enough, but otherwise is nowhere near this trope whatsoever.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Oh uh well I'm here. Nobody keeps in the newest pokemon game scarlet and violt.
Also suggestion could we move the link to the drafts to the header or banner on the top pf threads since there is no official caretaker in either thread.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cross-wired freak
Not the Eye
My writeups.
- Star Wars: Republic “Infiniti’s end” arc issues 23-26: Mother Zalem is an evil leader of Dathomirian Nightsisters who plans to use the Infinity Gate to destroy Coruscant. Having enslaved and killed Jedi Knight in her youth, she has her seemingly deformed and powerless daughter abandoned to the cruelty. Forcing her slaves Kwa pyramids in deadly conditions and having Kwi, devolved descendants of the Kwa, captured and tortured. Zalem has captured Jedi Quinlan Vos injected with a deadly poison before venturing into the Kwa pyramid, and activating the Infinity Gate and sending a destructive wave on Coruscant, with her only regret being that she wouldn’t be able to hear the screams of Jedi and countless innocents who will die.
- Adventures into Terror issue1 ” The Unknown partner”: Titus H.Crocked is a greedy bussines man who would do anything for profit. Throught his cutthroad businnes, Titus has countless innocents left penniles and even couses a school collapse that claims lives of hundreds of children, culminating in driving his brother to suicide.
Thoughts?
Like the rewrite Bull and good job keeping the writeups coming folks. Likewise for now I'll just leave my thoughts at being I'm inclined to keep Hotis and the evil wine cup of Zhea!
Yeah, Wat Tambor's points are more indicative of a Well-Intentioned Extremist than of someone who is only acting out of his ego or self-interest. Especially given the other Complete Monster characters in this setting, which take steps to demonstrate that their allegiances are not safe either. Lo Bu isn't even described as tyrant by his enemies.
My concern is in part that we are making the assumption that, in the absence of an explicit motive, it must be self-interest. Even though many if not most characters carrying out similar actions are doing them for altruistic (even if Well-Intentioned Extremist) motives. Even though when we work on tropes and especially contentious tropes, we generally work on the basis of "in doubt, leave off".
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RWBY: Arrowfell isn't on the discussion list, so mind if I discuss it? Shouldn't be a long one.
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Did Titus get enough votes?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
His enemies, though, would consist of a nomadic people who didn't have writings we know of. Everything comes from Westerosi sources who are neutral. Ultimatel,y what gets me for Lo Bu is how it describes him as 'leaving a burning wasteland behind, unswayed by tributes, hostages, oaths of fealty or offerings of peace."
His goal is the full extinction of a people. Without further info, I find it hard to find such a devotion to the complete eradication of a population to have any mitigating info on it. Genocide is a crime genuinely rare in ASOIAF materials. It is pointed out the Khogos Ngai are a threat to his power, not his people. Lo Bu is, in the end, the undisputed god emperor of his people and has no enemies within. If his answer to being challenged is to react with full on genocide, I have a hard time finding a level of altruism from that, especially when a huge point of ASOIAF is that rulership is an inevitably corrupting position that makes tyrants by its nature.
Likewise, I'm not sure other characters do similar for more altruistic reasons. Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton have led the attempted annihilation of entire Houses, Joffrey has more or less attempted the same, likewise Maegor.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 10th 2022 at 7:20:41 AM
Not the Eye
Final tally for Titus was.
No (4)
Abstain (1)
Yes (10)
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
and dr. Alt.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Dec 10th 2022 at 7:28:57 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, fair enough then.
Now the only writeups pending are Thomas Newmeyer and STAR's duo.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Genocide being an unique crime in ASOIAFnote is only an argument that Lo Bu is heinous. He is, but that is only one criterium of this trope and not the one under contention here. As Wat Tambor notes, one can easily see a Well-Intentioned Extremist motive for these actions.
The other guys you mention have provably attacked their own people: Gregor Clegane burned his brother and killed one of his own men (possibly his family too). Ramsay Bolton killed his dad, abused his wife and starved his dogs (depending on book vs show). Joffrey's and Maegor's evil actions against their own people were already mentioned. By contrast, we don't have any evidence of Lo Bu having mistreated any of his people.
And I disagree on "power corrupts" being part of the ASOIAF ethos. Quite the opposite - we have a world of flawed individuals (and systems; who had the bright idea to give Gregor Clegane any kind of military power?) who often do evil things for altruistic reasons. I actually don't know of many examples of "power corrupts" individuals - Gregor and Joffrey were evil before they gained any power, Stannis Baratheon is moving in the opposite direction.
Edited by SeptimusHeap on Dec 10th 2022 at 4:38:54 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
This is where I respectfully disagree. The mention that Lo Bu refuses overtures of peace, and the Jogos Ngai are described as a threat specifically to his power. I can't find any hint that Lo Bu cares about his people, nor that he is trying to protect them.
All are also willing to commit crimes against others not 'their own,' either. Joffrey is willing to burn the North to nothing, Roose allows the Riverlands to be sacked when he maneuvers his troops out, Maegor was on board with wiping out Dorne, etc.
I disagree heavily with this. Martin has explicitly stated several times a huge exploration of ASOIAF is to see what power can do to someone. Many of the Targaryen Kings become far worse people when they have power, and many preside over a broken, tyrannical system regardless of good intent. Aegon V is probably the best person to ever sit the Throne and had to resort to tyranny.
By contrast, we are told nothing of Lo Bu's good deeds. No improvements to the lives of his people, no feeding the hungry, no public works projects. Just "these people are a threat to my power. Genocide them."
Overall, I see there are arguable qualities to this, so I'm happy for others to weigh in and pull back to allow voting myself.
Also, for one ongoing, if it's alright with folks, mind if I keep an eye on Willow? Quite enjoyed the openings!
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 10th 2022 at 7:59:05 AM
The issue to me is sympathizing him as a WIE feels like ACI since being courageous is the only note I'm seeing to support it. Having read the section myself I got the sense he was the most bloodthirsty ruler of his empire (his genocide is noted to be the most far-reaching campaign against their enemies) and the section about being unswayed by tribute sounds much more like an insistency on keeping the war going until the earth's been salted of his enemies. Likewise I am going to concur on power being a corruptive force in the author's work, the current setting being brought about after a once promising ruler (Aerys II) grew increasingly paranoid and violent.
Not the Eye
Keep Lo Bu.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Open for collab on Willow?
Edited by EmperorGeode on Dec 10th 2022 at 8:11:35 AM
Well, except that the Jogos Nhai are never described as a threat to his power. Only to his realm. Exact quote:
I think you are missing the point with Joffrey and Maegor. These guys (and the other Complete Monster examples) treat both friend and enemy as dirt. Lo Bu treats his enemies as dirt; we don't know what he treats his friends like. You can't simply assume that because he treats his enemies as dirt he also treats his friends as dirt. Tywin Lannister and Cersei Lannister are extraordinarily evil people, but they do love their wife and children (respectively). Most of the examples given of "power corrupts" are more examples of people with already questionable morals getting more means to hurting people, too. Again, the issue isn't actions but motive.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Also lemme toss in a 'cut' for Gray, as I missed voting.
I respect the points, but I respectfully disagree. "His Realm" is a neutral term, one that does not encompass any love for his people. He does not need to be abusing his subjects to qualify, only for there to be a lack of demonstrated love for them. If there was a sign he cared about his people, made improvements to the realm, instituted such policies, etc. Then I would agree. But as it is, all I see is a brutal, genocidal monarch who refuses even overtures of peace to consider said genocide.
Likewise, I don not agree that the theme is "people with questionable motives get worse." Martin has made clear, personally, the corruptive nature of power on even otherwise good people. Aegon V is a sterling example, even Jon Snow finds it difficult to be moral when he needs to be a leader.
If others vote against me, all good.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 10th 2022 at 8:12:48 AM
He does not need to be abusing his subjects to qualify, only for there to be a lack of demonstrated love for them.
That's the rub: We don't do troping like that. If we don't know if an example of a trope satisfies one of the key criteria of that trope, we leave the example off, we don't default to inclusion. That sounds like yet another instance of these threads making up their own rules. And yes, you need to demonstrate that he doesn't care about his subjects; wiping out people who keep invading your country is beneficial to his subjects. Pragmatic Villainy ("My subjects won't pay taxes if the Jogos Nhai keep sacking them, which is inconvenient" or something Roose Bolton-like) needs to be proven, not assumed.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ultimate Moral Compass
Keep Lo Bu
"No running in the halls!"
I'm not making up any of my own rules. I don't see any evidence he cares for his people and none is included in the text. I'm just left with a man who brutally tried to exterminate an entire people even though they tried to sue for people multiple times.
We have a difference of opinion on a candidate, that's all.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wait...so if he doesn't abuse his subjects, we assume he loves them? That seems...off.
Also, Jackie, looks like Illega was one of yours, so thoughts from you (or anyone else) on this?
The Moron
Imma go ahead and drop off my write-ups:
- The United States of Monsters (between Dracula and Marcus):
- "Straight Outta Fangton": Renaud de Bures was once a fanatical member of the Knights Templar before becoming even worse as a vampire. Desiring to exterminate vampires despite being one himself, Renaud began a centuries-long crusade across Europe, killing anyone he deemed guilty, raping any woman who crossed his path, and releasing draugr onto human populations. In the modern day, Renaud seeks to destroy the vampire government and does so by recruiting the Human Rights League to blow up the Aphosis, knowing that it would kill thousands of innocent people along with his own forces. After murdering the families of the HRL when they fail, Renaud then forces Melissa Morris into his harem with mind control and forces her to drink David Treme's blood, all while David's best friend Peter Stone is forced to watch. Despite the suffering he endured in his backstory, all it proves about him is that Renaud has always been a hypocritical and narcissistic sadist who will gleefully wipe out both humanity and vampires in a mad devotion to a God he doesn't honor.
- Snow In Midsummer: Donkey Zheng is one of the oldest examples of this trope in Chinese theatre. Encountering Mrs. Cai and learning she has a daughter, Donkey forces her to marry his father so he can marry the daughter by threatening to strangle her if she disagrees. When her daughter, Dou E., refuses to marry him, he tries to poison her mother, but accidentally kills his own father. Showing no remorse for this, Donkey then frames Dou E. for his own crimes, leading to her being tortured and publicly hung.
"The Juice is Loose."
Just my opinions here:
Now, I think some of the arguments on Lo Bu do have merit, but reviewing the section? Lo Bu doesn't seem to have any record he cares about hsi people. We have to consider if this is someone going too far in defending his people, or just a tyrant guarding what belongs to him and taking genocidal means. The lack of regard for hostages and his extreme disproportionate actions is what sways me to the latter. I can totally understand opposing him, but I think the lack of elaboration on anything sympathetic and a lean towards less decent qualities is what pushes him to a keeper for me- but I think discussion is good.
@Emperor Geode: I think talking Hotis could be good actually. he was one of the early keepers. Critical role is full of nasty pricks and Hotis got in on the sheer basis oof quality for the serial killings, torture and the sheer lengths he goes to ruin and hurt Vax, but we do have a whole lot of bad people there now.
While I'm at it? Nobody counts in the Menu. Chef Julian Slowik has serious mitigating qualities, ditto anyone under him.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 10th 2022 at 6:50:43 AM