CM/MB Policy and Thread Culture

NF has been widely acknowledged to be awful and a problem child for years. Not exactly a good comparison.

IT's because there was new info brought up, things that weren't considered, new scenes, things overlooked, etc.

Isn't revising based on new evidence a solid practice? We cut a TON of examples, too. When new info comes up that makes a character not fit a trope, we discuss and cut, just like a cleanup should do.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 7th 2022 at 2:19:47 AM

And monitor unapproved entries who need cutting as well

So there's a lot going, but I'll just put forward that a possible solution to the reservations is to have it so that you only make them two weeks in advance of a work's release.

I myself also joined only two or so years ago, and I found it relatively welcoming, although I have noticed a tendency to ignore non-effort post related questions from newer/less regular accounts.

That's quite reasonable. And I think giving more time to people with legit questions is good practice.

And I'll note we've had quite a bit of success with "cut and PM the troper." A lot of times, people will show up, say why they added it, and either successfully propose it, or give us something to debate. Most don't stay, but it's caused participation

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 7th 2022 at 2:21:19 AM

As someone who has been on the threads, I want to clarify that I was welcomed there quite nicely.

I'm also fine with getting rid of sandboxes (unless they are important such as drafts) and the two tropes becoming Just for Fun.

I don't really have much to say here but I do want to give my piece.

Edited by BillyPeepers92 on Oct 7th 2022 at 2:29:09 AM

While things can admittedly get unorthodox and chaotic, we keep a very dignified and civil manner of how to treat things for the most part and final decisions are almost always respected—even if there's sometimes dissonance in the process.

One last thing I'll say: just because a trope is popular, does not mean there is nothing wrong with it. As a regular in TRS, we have tackled some big tropes before. It is a daunting task, but a trope's wick count does not excuse it from negative behaviors or patterns. It is much harder to fix, yes, but that's not a reason to just throw in the towel and let it fester.

My stance is that something here needs to change.

As someone who has been lurking on the CM thread for a while, it definitely does seem cliqueish, especially when it comes to the whole reservation system. Searching for examples aside, it means that a lot of popular media is being handled by the same handful of thread regulars (being "open to collaboration" helps, but it still means that the same people are involved in the checking/EP writing). It also means that certain media have characters that really should be examples but have been effectively filibustered because the person who "reserved" it is too busy digging through B-movies for more examples. The sandboxes also are not easily accessible to people who don't already know where they are, which is a problem given how important they seem to be. If nothing else, I'd eliminate any sandboxes that aren't just holding drafts and eliminate the reservation system.

Edit: wow this thread moves fast

Edited by Afterword on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:23:46 AM

I will say this; if anyone ever felt unwelcomed in the thread; we are really sorry; we should welcome new folks.

I'm genuinely unsure where any of this has occurred.

I definitely don't think CM and MB should be Just for Fun pages. They are real tropes with narrative significance, and deserve to be documented on works' pages. For that same reason, the tropes should also continue to accept examples in some capacity.

Yeah, usually if someone doesn't discuss that day it's because it was a big video game that needed more time (remember, we all have real lives too...I think ).

I'm just gonna say that while a number of these criticisms are justified, including the threads' often insular nature, I also believe that the notion that we should "burn it all to the ground" is not proposing a solution but another problem. While I understand and can indeed reckon with the need for a temporary halt— the idea that we should fundamentally restart or end the process doesn't strike me well at all.

There are years of work having been done on those threads that I don't see a purpose in simply eliminating. There are absolutely issues; there's absolutely no denial there. That said, the thread is also functional and has done a great degree of good work over the years. There is an extensive process that indeed has some culture issues that could use being rectified, but I think the jump from "There are issues with thread culture that require resolving" and "We should shut the thread down and dispel all the work that has been done."

I fully agree with there being a culture issue with the threads, it absolutely needs fixing, but the thread has also proven itself reliable and helpful for years.

My personal vote; keep the page and examples... but I will leave it to you guys what to do with the thread; I have no idea.

In my opinion, I believe that the CM and MB threads are important because they are areas where troopers like us can discuss which ones can count and which ones cannot, hence why we have EPs to determine the verdict for each candidates , and keeping the threads helps up prevent miss-use of any of these tropes.

If we need to get rid of the sandboxes or at least transfer them to the Just for Fun section (with the exception of the drafts, discussion dates, and to-do list since they help out on organizing the entires and who will do which candidate) then that will be okay, but I think getting rid of either threads entirely would be the incorrect decision, especially since it would bring more disorder about candidates.

Edited by G-Editor on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:28:07 AM

I think feel we should keep them YMMV and while ignoring question can become a problem its wery rare and from what I have seen pretty much always only take reinstating to get a attention. Also don’t see problem with tropers going “there was this work annauched and would anybody mind if I talk obout it if there are keepers

Here’s a suggestion: why not have rotating mods and/or people who are allowed to vote on new candidates in order to avoid cliques.

To be clear, trying to say Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard are real tropes that are old and have narrative signficance is not something I agree with. They are listed on YMMV because of their subjectivity and aren't always planned by the writers. Not entirely sure if they should be on JFF, but I'll let others decide. Now, many tropes which are often part of these characters do count as such (Faux Affably Evil, Hate Sink, Omnicidal Maniac, Serial Killer, etc.), but I wouldn't say the same about these pages themselves.

Edited by Piterpicher on Oct 7th 2022 at 11:28:27 AM

As an occasional poster to CM, the one suggestion I have? If the threads remain and we keep the criterion and the EP process and all that, they should be moved out of YMMV. While the idea of a CM or an MB is YMMV, the TV Tropes definitions have become so precise that, for the purposes of the wiki, they are objective tropes, even if there's disagreement. I'm down with the Just for Fun suggestion, but if that proves unpopular and we keep the threads, we should move both tropes to either the main work page, the character sheets, or for episodic works, the relevant recap page.

Yeah I do agree that the culture of both threads are the issue and that simply burning it all is not the answer.

As for the reservation issue, only making reservations two weeks beforehand makes the most sense to me personally.

I'll also add the reservation practice stems from the amount of work needed to analyse a candidate which itself stems from the nature of the tropes themselves. It's not as simple a trope like Chainsaw Good where a character just uses a chainsaw, you gotta look at the character's entire onscreen lifespan. It's a lot of work and it would be disheartening to a troper if it went down the drain because someone else beat them to it.

Though I'll admit, reserving something years in advance might be a tad bit excessive. I'm good with 2 weeks reservation myself.

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 7th 2022 at 2:28:59 AM

Final: I'm not sure that's a great idea. Whether someone's heinous enough is, IMO, always a matter of opinion.

Yeah, I'd be open to narrowing the window a work can be claimed. I don't have a concrete solution, but probably a matter of months or even weeks, not years (or at the very least works that have an official release date).

Edited by ACW on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:29:41 AM

Admittedly I haven't behaved perfectly in this situation either, but I came in intending to try to write an EP for Trent Ikithon from the second campaign of Critical Role, only to be told that he would absolutely keep but someone else had already reserved it.