Character pronoun and identity discussion

for female pronouns. Again, it's what official media uses.

I should probably clarify that my previous two posts, as well as this one, are just stating my opinion on how to handle things and not official statements.

Also, neglected to mention that I'm in favor of going with she/her, especially since a native Japanese speaker debunked the claim that this is something the translation came up with.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 11th 2022 at 6:00:25 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

It's also worth remembering that Daisuke Ishiwatari himself is fluent in English (being of mixed South African descent) and signs off on the translations, so the scenario being presented was pretty unlikely in the first place.

I'm also going to add that more or less the same thing happened when the character Testament officially started using They/Them pronouns a few months ago (so I apologise if I sound a little wary).

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

Agenda-based edits involving pronouns have been going on further back than the ones involving this series. I wasn't even a mod when I first recall seeing ATT reports regarding these types of edits coming up.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 11th 2022 at 6:48:24 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I meant that in a narrower sense (same arguments, same weird assumptions about Japan, etc).

I know firsthand that people can get weird about pronouns (and, indeed, the suggestion any character might be trans) on the wiki. TBH, for every thread like this, there's another two situations where LGBTQ+ content was purged from the wiki because it was too much effort for anyone editing in good faith to keep up with drive by edits from people who had a problem with it.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

Not sure how helpful this would be or not, but as the indeterminately-not-cis person who spearheaded a similar discussion about Kris' gender identity in Deltarune, I'd say that, based on the template set by that, even when discounting the ending where she explicitly comes out, the vast majority of in-game material surrounding Bridget in STRIVE supports the idea of her being trans, much like Kris, especially given how easily-debunked the argument of "it's only in the localization" is. If anything, localizations (especially English ones) have typically done more to suppress LGBT+ representation, e.g. Sailor Moon and Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, with Guilty Gear benefitting from appealing to a niche that emphasizes faithful translations. Given this and a conspicuous rise in LGBT+ representation in mainstream Japanese media since the mid-2010s, it's clear that she's meant to be definitively seen as trans.

As for crowners, with Kris, one was needed to definitively say that they are nonbinary for ease of editing because Kris' identity is indicated entirely through context clues and nonbinary people are especially subject to the double-standard of requiring an explicit confirming statement. With Bridget, however, given what I've noticed in this thread, the matter appears to be clear-cut enough to not need one; the overall consensus is that, in-line with what's depicted in-game, Bridget is a trans girl.

Edited by bowserbros on Aug 12th 2022 at 2:03:45 AM

Be kind.

I suggestedthis in the snapdragon thread as well, but i think it might be worth decing on some general guidelines for cases where pronouns are unclear or have mixed signals (the current policy seems to be pretty informal). We cant cover every case, by defintion i think this thread will end up with the oddball situations and edge cases, but we can come up with a general idea of what to aim for

Some questions to consider:

• Is They/them ever considered an acceptable compromise if the situation is unclear?

• can we consider Word of God, Word of Dante or supplemental material, never, or in some cases?

• is it ever acceptable to use pronouns which the author did not use, particularly in older stories where the author might not have been as clear on the concept?

(For example, the manga Claudine, made in the 70s, is unambiguously about a trans guy, but refers to him as she/her throughout. Our page uses he/him)

Edited by Tremmor19 on Aug 11th 2022 at 3:01:03 PM

> Is They/them ever considered an acceptable compromise if the situation is unclear?

1) It can be

2)The word of God takes priority but it can sometimes clash with show canon.

3)If there is sufficient evidence that the pronouns they used at the time were not factually correct then it makes sense to correct them otherwise we treat the pronouns used in the work as being correct.

New theme music also a box

"Using they/them pronouns if the work is unclear what pronouns to use" has happened before. I asked about Caenis when they were made playable in NA what pronouns to use since the game really throws Caenis' gender around and uses different pronouns in different contexts (they/them in profile, she/her for most of the cast, he/him by a very close ally, and even in one segment she/he combined pronoun), and it was unambiguously decided that they/them was the best option.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

The reason I don't want to set any hard and fast guidelines is because each case has a different context. What works in one instance might not apply to another. I mean, think about it, we can only go off of the cases we've resolved so far - and had we tried to set rules just a few months ago, Word of God would be completely disregarded, even though it was ultimately sided with in the Snapdragon case.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 12th 2022 at 2:10:16 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I misunderstood and didn't know you were specifically referring to conversations in the vein of this one, as opposed to agenda-based edits involving pronouns in general, since I'm not sure if I saw the previous conversations you're referring to. Since you clarified that this isn't an isolated incident, I have a better understanding of why you're wary (though I don't think you needed to apologize for it; I think it was justified). I became aware of this thread because a different mod brought it up in the mod chat; I generally don't post on Wiki Talk aside from the Outdated Administrivia Pages thread.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 12th 2022 at 10:25:11 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Okay, here's a werid one that's also from Guilty Gear: Baiken

Normally she/her, but also it's implied she might be non-binary as well(?) based on dialogue of her's that states she "casted her womanhood away", implying perhaps she/they or some degree of non-conforming.

Character Specific Page cleanup

implications aren't sufficient imo. unless she explicitly uses a different pronoun, there's no reason to change what's on the page.

Where does that get stated? If you're talking about her story mode in Accent Core, then it is generally accepted that Baiken's Path 2 is not the canon one for her, and it is the one where she goes homicidal.

I'm not really sure if clarifying pronouns for the entire Guilty Gear characters are that necessary. I haven't really seen it in that many character pages (and few that I've seen fall under Queer Media so there it is justified), and the depth of each Guilty Gear character varies (like there is a clear difference between Zato-1/Eddie and Jam).

Not necessarily. It just feels like overcorrecting things.

Edited by TPPR10 on Aug 12th 2022 at 11:38:18 AM

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Even then, does it hurt to include them?

Character Specific Page cleanup

Include what? If she doesn't alter her pronouns, what are you asking us to change?

For most characters, pronouns are straight forward: It's just how people talk about them. There's no real need to specify unless you have a situation like Bridget's.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 12th 2022 at 4:38:41 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

If there is no crowner needed for the Bridget situation, then I think we can possibly move on some other topic. I have another thing I want to discuss.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Such as?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

in Fate/strange Fake, there are few characters who don't fall into the cisgender norm of things. While some of them are more accepted like Pale Rider being just "it", there are few that are bit weird due to how they are referred to as in other English works.

• Enkidu is referred with "he/him" pronouns in FSF page, but in Fate/Grand Order, Enkidu is referred with "they/them" pronouns due to No Biological Sex and being a living weapon. FSF doesn't have official translation, so it is "Fan translation Vs. official translation of sister series", in a franchise with cases of Inconsistent Dub.
• Huwawa's profile mainly tries to avoid pronouns or just uses "it" with Huwawa. In FGO, when Enkidu talks about Huwawa, they have hard time deciding between "she/her" or "they/them", as Huwawa is a creature composed of over 2,000 human children with only one soul being sane enough to talk with Enkidu.
• Thia, one of newer characters, is using "he/him" pronouns because Thia's gender is simply listed as "The body serving as Thia's foundation is male". Thia's profile also says that the narration uses double-pronouns to refer to Thia like with Enkidu.

I admit that I haven't really kept up with the fan translation to really say how everyone refers to others, so especially with Thia there might be a need of help of someone who actually knows what is going on.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Well, the fan translation is a fan translation, so unofficial. Since there's an offical source referring to Endiku with a certain set of pronouns, let's refer to Endiku with whatever those pronouns as since they're still offical, albeit used in a sister series.

Victor of HGS S320 | "There's rosemary, that's for remembrance. Pray you, love, remember."

Yeah, use the official pronouns from the sister series. If the main work uses different pronouns when it's translated, we could come back to this and discuss it then.

Also, paging ~StarSword since they had a character they wanted to discuss.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

Huh, does putting a tilde (~) next to a troper's name send them a message when you post it?

Anyway, yeah, it's Topa from The Orville. I laid out the details here, but basically she was AFAB, but then given a government-ordered Easy Sex Change because f**kery, and then started experiencing gender dysphoria as an adolescent and (de?)transitioned back to female with another Easy Sex Change.

Right now the Recap pages for the series use her pronoun choice of the time of any given episode (I think she's in about six or seven altogether?), which I think makes sense, but I'm wondering whether we should synchronize all the other various Orville subpages (character sheet etc.) onto a single pronoun standard when discussing her.

if the character has changed pronouns during the show's run but currently only uses one set of pronouns, it makes sense to just use the most recent set everywhere (with an exception for those Recap pages, those should use whatever pronouns the character uses in that specific episode).

welcome back.

Edited by ChloeJessica on Aug 15th 2022 at 9:14:57 AM

For those of you not stalking the Edit Banned thread, I have indeed retracted my argument regarding Bridget because my info was based on a crap source. Keeping the posts up so everyone can see what everyone else was talking about.

---

To ping someone it's ~@/TroperName. ~@/{{Troper}} for those that don't Wiki Word.

This isn't the first time that the issue of changing pronouns to match a later transition has come up with regards to Recap/; IIRC it ended with no real consensus last time.

Edited by RallyBot2 on Aug 15th 2022 at 12:14:40 PM