Thread created as a spin-off of an Ask The Tropers thread.
There have been some recurring problems when it comes to how to refer to a character due to them being potentially transgender, such as Yamato or Snapdragon, or has other circumstances that make their gender identity/pronouns unclear. While in the past each character has gotten their own dedicated thread, the latest problem when it comes to how to interpreted Bridget has raised an opinion that there should be more of a general thread discussing these topics in case any future problems come up. Preferably we should discuss one character at a time before moving up to the next character.
Queries about references to a character's deadname are also on-topic here.
Spoilers in the thread must be tagged.
As a rule of thumb, using they/them in cases where the character's gender is unclear is acceptable.
If someone disregards consensus that was established here, particularly if a character is clearly trans and someone is trying to deny that, it's something to report on Ask The Tropers rather than here.
Spoilers in this "Resolved characters" folder are unmarked.
- General policy on characters who reincarnate/gain new bodies, and have their gender change when they do so (in specific, Eternals (2021), Doctor Who): When discussing a particular incarnation/body, use the pronouns the work and its characters used for the character in that form. When a character has used different pronouns at different times (e.g. for different incarnations), default to they/them pronouns if discussing the character overall. Discussion begins here.
- A from Xenoblade Chronicles 3: Intentionally not addressed by pronouns, use the name A. Discussion begins here
- Acht/Dedf1sh from Splatoon: They/them. Discussion begins here.
- Apep from Genshin Impact: It/its. Discussion begins here.
- Arval from Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes: They/them. Discussion begins here
- Baron Ashura from Mazinger Z: They/them pronouns for their appearance in Super Robot Wars. Discussion begins here.
- Bedman? from Guilty Gear: It/its. Discussion begins here.
- Blitzcrank from League of Legends: They/them pronouns. Discussion begins here.
- Bridget from Guilty Gear: Confirmed to be a trans woman and uses she/her pronouns. Discussion begins in this discussion page thread, then continues in this Ask the Tropers query followed by the first post of this thread.
- Buzam A. "BC" Calessa from Vandread: She/her. Discussion begins here.
- Candy Caramella from Space Goofs: He/him in the original cartoon, she/her when referring to the version of Candy in the spin-off game Stupid Invaders. Discussion begins here.
- Cheese from Sonic the Hedgehog: He/him when referring to the version in the video games, they/them for the version in the IDW comics. Discussion begins here.
- Cho'gath from League of Legends: Both he/him and it/its are fine, as long as the pronoun used is consistent within a given example. Discussion begins here.
- Claude from Claudine: He/him. Discussion begins here.
- Dragona from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: He/him until more information is given. Discussion begins here.
- Enkidu from Fate Series: They/them. Discussion begins here.
- F.F. from Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure Stone Ocean: They/them pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- FLUDD from Super Mario Sunshine: It/its pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Funtime Foxy from Five Nights at Freddy's: Intentionally Ambiguous Gender; he/she pronouns. Discussion starts here and continues here.
- Gabriela from Como dice el dicho: She/her, use the name Gabriela. Discussion begins here.
- Gala Laxi from Dragalia Lost: They/them when referring to the combined entity of Laxi and Mascula. She/her when referring to just Laxi, he/him when referring to just Mascula. Discussion begins here.
- Gozer from Ghostbusters (1984): They/them. Discussion starts here.
- Gwyndolin from Dark Souls: He/him pronouns. Discussion begins here.
- Hassan of Intoxicated Smoke from Fate/Grand Order: He/him pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Heather Swanson from South Park: "She/her" pronouns (Scare Quotes included). Discussion starts here and continues here.
- Hibari from Stop Hibari Kun: She/her pronouns.
- Juniper from Xenoblade Chronicles 3: They/them pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Kris from Deltarune: They/them pronouns, and is to be treated as nonbinary unless otherwise stated. This decision was made in this thread.
- Lambert from Cult of the Lamb: They/them. Discussion starts here
- Lor from Borderlands: He/him, use the name Lor. Discussion begins here.
- Mangle from Five Nights at Freddy's: Intentionally Ambiguous Gender; he/she pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Mordred from Fate Series: She/her, with an Ambiguous Gender Identity entry. Discussion starts here.
- Morpheus Duvall from Resident Evil: Dead Aim: They/them on the Resident Evil - Umbrella Corporation character page. Discussion begins here.
- Omochao from Sonic the Hedgehog: They/them. Discussion begins here.
- Osana Najimi from Komi Can't Communicate: They/them pronouns. Discussion begins here.
- Pamela Incu from Welcome to Demon School! Iruma-kun: He/him. Discussion begins here.
- Phantom Mangle from Five Nights at Freddy's: Intentionally Ambiguous Gender; he/she pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Prized Isshin Blade from Genshin Impact: He/him. Discussion begins here
- Pokémon in general from Pokémon: Gendered pronouns when discussing a specific individual Pokémon, it/its when discussing a Pokémon species in general. Discussion begins here, is continued here.
- La Pucelle from Magical Girl Raising Project: He/him in civilian form, she/her when transformed into a magical girl. Discussion begins here.
- Snapdragon from High Guardian Spice: They/them pronouns. This decision was made in this thread via crowner.
- Stella Lulu from Magical Girl Raising Project: He/him in civilian form, she/her when transformed into a magical girl. Discussion begins here.
- Sui from Campfire Cooking in Another World with My Absurd Skill: It/its. Discussion begins here.
- Takatsuki from Wandering Son: He/him except for when discussing the end of the manga beneath spoiler tags. In that case, she/her. Discussion begins here
- Terri from Amphibia: They/them. Discussion begins here
- Thailand from Scandinavia and the World: They/them, per what's used on this official FAQ page.
- The Toaster from The Brave Little Toaster: He/him pronouns. This decision was made in this thread.
- Topa from The Orville: she/her outside Recap pages, pronouns at time of episode on Recap. Discussion begins here.
- Vennia from Cafe Enchante: Both he/him and they/them are fine, as long as the pronoun used is consistent within a given example. Discussion begins here.
- The vessels (the Knight, the Hollow Knight, the Broken Vessel, and the other void siblings) from Hollow Knight: It/its. Discussion begins here, is continued here.
- Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door: She/her pronouns. Due to Adaptational Gender Identity, whether she's transgender or cisgender depends on the localization. Discussion begins here.
- Yamato from One Piece: He/him pronouns. This decision was decided in this thread via crowner.
- Yena from Seton Academy: Join the Pack!: He/him pronouns. Discussion begins here.
Edited by Bisected8 on Apr 22nd 2024 at 1:16:38 PM
You're asserting that the ending only makes Bridget canonically trans in English, which is clearly not true.
Even aside from the text of the game itself, Daisuke Ishiwatari is literally making statements with clear word swaps (going from he to she) to make it clear that this is a Coming-Out Story.
Unrelated to what I said: Here's another trans person with more energy giving some thoughts on Bridget's status as a trans icon (NB: The post is two days old, so it misses the more recent developments).
Edited by Bisected8 on Aug 10th 2022 at 12:23:48 PM
TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer"Multiple languages" then what does the Korean dub say about Bridget?
Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!Look, you're trying to pick holes and suggest ambiguity where there is none (the twitter thread I linked in my first post in this thread addressed the very argument you're making).
As of her last appearance (and character bio in Strive), her village has accepted that she was a guy, and the superstition (that twin boys are cursed) was bunk; while it's a rather contrived situation, she's very much in the position of any other trans girl wanting to come out (with the added baggage potentially confirms to the superstition she's worked so hard to fight, since she is indeed a girl).
You are correct that otokonoko are indeed a feature of Japanese culture, but your assertions that Bridget must be one are flawed.
While you're entitled to your opinion, your interpretation that she's somehow caved into pressure to present femme is also flawed (and also a transphobic trope that's used to try and forcefully detransition trans people IRL). She's been accepted as a man by her village, and can stop presenting as a girl any time she wants (indeed, her work as a bounty hunter means she doesn't even need to worry about what her village thinks).
Edited by Bisected8 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:32:43 PM
TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faerBridget seems to be unambiguously female if her in-game bio uses feminine pronouns.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?The counter-argument of "Bridget is not transwoman" feels like mental gymnastics due to how it changes.
- "It is all localization fault!" When the Japanese Arcade Mode is pretty much the same.
- "Bridget calling themself a girl happened in the bad ending!", implying that the Flawless ending contradicts the normal end, or that it invalidates it.
- "The Japanese text has different meaning!", like Japanese text is as strict in meaning as English text is.
Guilty Gear isn't even stranger to challenging gender norms with other characters. Testament was always designed to be an "androgynous goth star" like Marilyn Mason, possibly being nonbinary due to their transformation into a Gear, but it isn't until Strive that this becomes a prominent feature of them. One of Baiken's two endings in XX has her submitting into bloodlust to the point that when Ky confronts Baiken, Baiken laughs at him calling them a "woman". Of course this is not meant to be the "canon" ending for Baiken, and Xrd has her becoming more feminine in appearance. Venom has a homosexual crush on Zato-1, and Goldlewis' dialogue in Bridget's Arcade Mode sounds like he might be closeted gay. Bridget was definitely conceived as being "boy who dressed up as a girl" to lighten up the roster, but world has changed since XX came out in 2002, and it seems like they decided that the best way to handle Bridget was to turn her into a transwoman.
Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!If official media uses female pronouns, just go with that.
Yep in agreement. Female pronouns seem to be the correct choice.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 10th 2022 at 10:16:04 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."So Bridget's fine as she is? I'd like to move on frankly.
Character Specific Page cleanupI mean, technically we still probably need a crowner since just because the discussion leans one way doesn't mean the consensus of the wiki in general will agree (Snapdragon's situation shows how volatile these things can be if there's any chance of ambiguity at all).
FWIW I've been on the side of "She/Her" since I read the first post, but admittedly I know little about Japanese pronouns and am still holding out for the possibility that there really is a localization difference that matters. That doesn't mean that if the vote happened right this second I wouldn't vote She/Her, just that I'm willing to hear more evidence if such a thing is possible and necessary.
(Also, move onto what? Is there another character you want to cover or do you just want to leave the conversation, because like, if you're getting sick of this you don't have to stick around the whole time. Nobody would blame you if you decided to dip.)
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 1:57:05 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessMove on as in accept that the character is she/her. Not only because the game makes it explicit but also so that we can finally shut down a lot of the ignorant/bad faith arguments around this particular character.
Character Specific Page cleanupWhich again we need a crowner to do, we can't just declare consensus with a handful of people on a thread and the only person who disagreed being thumped. Like, these things can't be rushed especially with how controversial these things can be. (Not that they should be controversial, but like... ya know.)
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessIf nothing else a proper Crowner offers something specific to point to when the subject comes up again later.
When we are talking about a crowner, we mean a general one on how to handle character pronouns and identities?
Macron's notesNo? I mean a crowner for Bridget. These things are just going to have to be decided on a case by case basis; as the results of the Snapdragon thread proved, precedent doesn't really mean much if another case gives us reason to break it.
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 3:07:48 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessI figured but I wasn't sure because I thought it would be too early to make a crowner as the announcement regarding Bridget was made a few days ago. I rather not have a crowner but since this is something that causing conflict on the wiki I guess we can come up with one.
Macron's notesI agree it's too early, lol, I'm only saying we need a crowner because people are starting to push for consensus after a short time. I'm not saying it has to happen now, just that it has to happen.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Purenessi still think a general policy crowner regarding localization pronouns would be useful.
I know nothing about the Bridget situation (agree with the folks saying she's a trans woman based on the thread) but I'll throw another curveball into the mix, been trying to get an up/down answer to this one for a while. This is where the pronoun question intersects with Handling Spoilers IMHO.
Topa on The Orville was assigned female at birth but then forcibly given an Easy Sex Change because she's from a species of He Man Woman Haters, but in a mid-season 3 episode she turns out to be experiencing gender dysphoria as a result and transitions (detransitions?) back to female in "A Tale of Two Topas". Up to that episode the series refers to her in the masculine, and starting about the middle of the episode they switch to female.
I can understand using he/him on Recap pages for preceding episodes, but elsewhere such as on the main page and other subpages, should we batch replace every reference to Topa as male, or try to follow the chronology, or what?
Edited by StarSword on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:06:18 AM
No offense to you Star, and I agree it's a situation that needs to be addressed, but to keep this thread from getting too cluttered we're trying to focus on one character at a time. When the Bridget discussion is resolved we can tackle your case, though.
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:09:33 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessI almost feel like we don't want a crowner right because of how emotionally charged this issue is and how whenever we do crowners for topics like this one they get hijacked with weird options
But of course we'll have to do a crowner at some point just to settle this issue
New theme music also a boxThe Snapdragon one wasn't hijacked tho... That one was a mess, but for a different reason.
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:17:09 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessSnapdragon one was difficult because it was never confirmed in the show itself but by Word of God on Twitter,at least it's clearer here
New theme music also a boxWell, yeah. But since you said the crowner could be hijacked I'm just pointing out that there's not much reason to think that.
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:32:38 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
It's not an "I do not like and you like." It's an "I do not think it's as clear as you do."
I'm talking about all endings and multiple languages, while you'renote talking about one in English. That creates a clear divide between our positions.