To-do list:
- Clean up the on page examples and remove examples that don't fit the new definition.
- Remove wicks that don't fit the rewritten definition. Progress is being tracked using the Sandbox.Would Clean Wicks sandbox.
Would Hit a Girl often falls under People Sit on Chairs, having no narrative significance. Most examples I've seen are in cases where you wouldn't expect the attacker to care about gender, such as fighting Action Girls or with animals and monsters that don't know or care about human gender roles. While there are tropeworthy uses where characters are willing to harm defenceless (or seemingly-defenceless) women, fighting a woman who can clearly fight back says no more about a character than fighting a man does. The trope needs to be redefined to get rid of the pointless cases and focus only on ones where the attacked person being female actually matters.
A wick check of 76 wicks yielded the following results:
- 22 of them (29%) are correct examples with clear notability.
- 25 of them (33%) are technically correct, but not meaningful in-universe.
- 10 of them (13%) are either ZCE or misuse.
- 19 of them (25%) are unclear or mixed.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 15th 2023 at 11:22:31 AM
(she/her)
What new laconic? The laconic hasn't been changed to reflect the redefinition yet.
Macron's notes
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Eh? The laconic doesn't mention morality at all.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Oh, I misread one person's post and thought they were proposing a tweak to the Laconic as well. My bad. Ignor what I said.
reconsidering
hi, sorry to show up late after the change had been put it, but to me the new opening line doesn't completely reflect the agreed on new defintion? it mentiones being seen as morally bad, but my understanding of the discussion is that it just has to be remarked upon in the story (aka, the Harry Potter example in which chivalry is mentioned but explicitly rejected). it also implies this is limited to villains and antiheroes imo
so i would prefer something like "A male character who rejects the values of so- called chivalry and treats his male and female opponents equally. Only applies if the concept that men should not hit women is mentioned In Universe.
or something like that
otherwise fine with definition
(she/her)
^ I suppose that works better
Macron's notes
the Retromancer
reconsidering
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
no it isnt. thats why i think the first line should be changed, since the current version implies that it is
any objection it is ok that i switch it?
the Retromancer
Sorry, I've misread and assumed that's what you're adding instead of what're you changing. I approve your rewrite idea.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Been a month since the last post...
Suggestion: How about changing the title to something like, "Would Harm A Damsel" to make it sound less generic?
For instance, the Big Bad of The Avenging Eagle has a pregnant woman alongside multiple unarmed handmaidens killed during a family massacre to prove how evil he is, so that's definitely legit.
The term "girl" seems too broad, which seems to be the root of all the misuse
(she/her)
You missed the crowner. Renaming the trope failed to gather consensus as the people who voted were against it.
Macron's notes
(she/her)
~tremmor19 Do you still plan on suggesting a rewrite for the opening line of the trope?
Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 9th 2023 at 7:41:49 AM
Macron's notes
reconsidering
sorry, haven't been doing much on here lately! yes, I'll write something in just a moment
Edited by Tremmor19 on Feb 9th 2023 at 7:37:29 AM
reconsidering
A male character who rejects the values of so- called chivalry and treats his male and female opponents equally. Since this trope is about defying social expectations, it only counts if the work mentions the expectation that men should not hit women— even if just to defy it.
if no objections, i can just sub that in real quick
(she/her)
The second sentence sounds odd as an opener. Maybe put it in between the last two paragraphs?
Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 10th 2023 at 1:01:08 PM
Macron's notes
reconsidering
That also works for me ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
How sweet it is
Checking in.
- Is the description rewrite done?
- I notice no progress on the wick cleaning sandbox. Judging by the wick count, should we start a cleanup thread in Projects?
(she/her)
Tremmor 19 suggested a small rewrite a few posts above and I made a suggestion. They weren't added yet so I'll handle that later.
There's several threads that people haven't been working on so I don't think we should move this to clean up thread just because things stalled. I want to get involved in this project but I am busy with Death By Sex right now.
Macron's notes
(she/her)
OK, Death By Sex is done so time to see what I can do for this. I just updated the description with Tremmor's suggestions so we are good on that front.
I think I'll start cleaning the example subpages starting with the Anime and Manga section when I have time. I can already tell that we are going to have to cull a large of the examples so not looking forward to doing that alone haha but I'll try to take this slow so I won't get burned out.
Edited by MacronNotes on Apr 18th 2023 at 12:34:07 PM
Macron's notes
I haven't read through the whole thread, so someone might have already suggested this, but why not just only list examples that acknowledge the trope? John Wick fighting a female assassin wouldn't qualify because it's not addressed in any way, but Batman fighting Magpie would because it's addressed.
(she/her)
That's what we are doing. Any example that doesn't acknowledge Wouldn't Hit a Girl or gender norms and is just "man hits woman" in isolation should be removed.
Edited by MacronNotes on Apr 18th 2023 at 12:33:51 PM
Macron's notes
the Retromancer
"Since this trope is about defying social expectations, it only counts if the work mentions the expectation that men should not hit women— even if just to defy it."
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
(she/her)
WouldHitAGirl.Anime And Manga has been cleaned out. I believe I got rid of all of the examples that don't fit the new definition.
Going to do the rest of the subapage and the main page later this week.
Macron's notes
(she/her)
That didn't happen...but I think I can at least clean the main page today (hopefully)
Macron's notes
One of the deleted entries from the Anime and Manga page is from some manga called Aho-Girl, but it's still the page image (Image Pickin?)
- Pictured is Akuru "A-kun" Akutsu of Aho Girl, who frequently teaches the titular idiotic girl Yoshiko a lesson for her annoying antics by pulling off a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown. It's not limited to Yoshiko, but to other characters as well.
Crown Description:
Concerns were raised that Would Hit A Girl's definition is too broad, and that the definition should be rewritten as proposed here
, here, and here. Renaming was also suggested. Should it be rewritten, and should it be renamed?
I still feel like that new laconic isn't the best either, as even in the examples discussed and the trope description, the character that is willing to hit/fight a woman can still be seen as fully heroic (see the "he's not sexist" line). So it still needs work.