To-do list:
- Clean up the on page examples and remove examples that don't fit the new definition.
- Remove wicks that don't fit the rewritten definition. Progress is being tracked using the Sandbox.Would Clean Wicks sandbox.
Would Hit a Girl often falls under People Sit on Chairs, having no narrative significance. Most examples I've seen are in cases where you wouldn't expect the attacker to care about gender, such as fighting Action Girls or with animals and monsters that don't know or care about human gender roles. While there are tropeworthy uses where characters are willing to harm defenceless (or seemingly-defenceless) women, fighting a woman who can clearly fight back says no more about a character than fighting a man does. The trope needs to be redefined to get rid of the pointless cases and focus only on ones where the attacked person being female actually matters.
A wick check of 76 wicks yielded the following results:
- 22 of them (29%) are correct examples with clear notability.
- 25 of them (33%) are technically correct, but not meaningful in-universe.
- 10 of them (13%) are either ZCE or misuse.
- 19 of them (25%) are unclear or mixed.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 15th 2023 at 11:22:31 AM
(she/her)
If the double standard is being supported by the work's narrative, it counts as an example. Do we need to clarify that in the rewrite? I am not sure if it's clear that those examples count or not.
Macron's notes
the Retromancer
Yeah, one of the uses agreed on is if the victim calls or tries Double Standard, but they do deserve being hit and violence is portrayed as gender-neutral-positive. Not sure how to phrase this.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
(she/her)
All I have is this. I don't like the wording though.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Perhaps extend this paragraph:
From:
If he's good, it's either because he's just not sexist and he believes in beating people up equally, or because he knows that holding back against female opponents is a good way to get his ass kicked or killed or endanger his friends/allies/muggles. In earlier works, the usual formula for invoking this was to say that he would "never hit a lady" - but "you're no lady" after the woman in question attacked him first or otherwise showed herself to be of low character.note Either way he stops as soon as she's no longer a threat.
To:
If he's good, it's either because he's just not sexist and he believes in beating people up equally, or because he knows that holding back against female opponents is a good way to get his ass kicked or killed or endanger his friends/allies/muggles. In earlier works, the usual formula for invoking this was to say that he would "never hit a lady" - but "you're no lady" after the woman in question attacked him first or otherwise showed herself to be of low character.note Alternatively, it could be the victim who tries to argue that he shouldn't hit her because she's a woman; the narrative depicts the claim as wrong, allowing him to proceed. In all these scenarios, he will stop as soon as she's no longer a threat.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Oct 23rd 2022 at 3:20:36 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
(she/her)
^ That looks good to me. If people agree on it, I'll add and then we can see if the description rewrite as a whole is ready to swap or not.
Macron's notes
(she/her)
Bumping for feedback. I updated the revamped description on Sandbox.Would Hit A Girl to include Wyldchyld's tweaks. Does it look good now or is it missing something?
Macron's notes
Peeks from Under Rocks
Like the early part of the new description. The intro to the bulletted list at the bottom, though, has me scratching my head.
"Would Hit a Girl by itself is People Sit on Chairs, as in modern times there are no standards that would protect people of one gender against being hurt in whatever situation. Only noteworthy Averted count, which can be made so, if they occur when, for example:"
- Averted is probably not what we want here.
- The sentence structure here is also throwing me. It's not fluent English.
Perhaps something like this:
"A male character being willing to hit a female one, with no other context, is People Sit on Chairs. This trope can only be in play when there is some applied standard that treats women as being protected in some way. For example:"
(The bullet points themselves may need some grammar cleanup)
Edited by underCoverSailsman on Oct 25th 2022 at 12:48:55 PM
(she/her)
Oh, I thought the bulleted part was part of the old description because they were right next to each other. I am not sure we need that part actually. I think it's clear from the intro that the trope doesn't count every instance of a man hitting a woman.
Also, the bulleted list looks more like a guideline for the rewrite than a part of the description.
EDIT: I think the tweaked paragraph you wrote might work but I still think that we should axe the bullet points (if they were intended to be part of the description).
Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 25th 2022 at 2:02:38 PM
Macron's notes
She / Her
It still is missing several details that others tropers (I'm referring to those posts that won in the crowner) suggested to put in, like hitting women being considered a step too far In-Universe. EDIT: And these suggestions
.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Oct 25th 2022 at 11:38:55 AM
(she/her)
^The tweaked intro already covers that and makes it clear that the trope is about how the narrative frames the characters actions. I am not sure if further elaboration is needed.
Also, the trope wasn't framed as limited to villains in the first place so we didn't have to work that into the description. That was just a suggestion put out by another troper as a way to tighten up the definition.
I don't see anything that's missing from the cited posts on the crowner.
Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 25th 2022 at 2:05:16 PM
Macron's notes
Peeks from Under Rocks
x3 In that case, never mind...
She / Her
Yeah, I'm aware it's still not villain-exclusive. However, I was talking about how the characters in-universe treat it and not the work's narrative, when the intro only covers the latter. Sorry if I didn't word that properly.
(she/her)
Well to me how the characters treat others is part of the narrative. If the narrative wants to frame something as bad, the characters within the narrative will treat it as such. I guess we can throw in-universe if people think that's not clear enough.
EDIT: Is this better?
"A guy that has no problems with violence against women is treated as morally questionable at best or evil at worst in a work's narrative and other characters."
Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 25th 2022 at 2:38:14 PM
Macron's notes
She / Her
That's fair.
the Retromancer
The bulleted list was indeed more of a guideline and the description is supposed to overlap it. If the first two points can be rephrased and appended to the description, this section wouldn't be needed.
And I think the paragraph about Exact Words is too wordy and don't even think was common.
Suggestion, also suggesting moving this analysis to the end closer to "Would Hit a Girl by itself is People Sit on Chairs, as in modern times..."
Edited by Amonimus on Oct 26th 2022 at 11:34:29 AM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
(she/her)
I already tweaked the intro to address the two bullet points broadly. I don't know if we need go into them in detail. Also, not sure how I feel about linking People Sit on Chairs in the description. I prefer a more natural way of implicitly telling people that men hitting women on its own isn't a trope. I made some further tweaks.
If he's good, it's either because he's just not sexist and he believes in beating people up equally, or because he knows that holding back against female opponents is a good way to get his ass kicked or killed or endanger his friends/allies/muggles. Alternatively, it could be the victim who tries to argue that he shouldn't hit her because she's a woman; the narrative depicts the claim as wrong, allowing him to proceed. In all these scenarios, he will stop as soon as she's no longer a threat.
If he's evil, it could be done in a multitude of ways. On the best end of the scale it could just be Equal-Opportunity Evil, like fighting Batgirl because she's a threat, and makes her look stronger when she beats him. More unpleasantly, it shows a Dirty Coward, attacking those weaker than him, and/or he's a bully who likes to make people afraid of him, or at the worst end of the scale, he's a sick monster who gets his kicks from hurting women. Ultimately, for it to be played as a villainous deed, it is necessary that the woman in question is not a threat to start with.
Naturally, modern female characters tend to go into battle fully expecting to be hit. If anything, many of them would probably be insulted if a male opponent went easy on them because of their sex. That said, an unprovoked attack on a girl, especially one who can't fight back, is still often played as a Kick the Dog moment, more so than if the genders were reversed. In milder works it is perfect as a Moral Event Horizon without the need for gore, torture, rape or death — it shows the villain will even hurt those who pose no threat.
This can often overlap with What Measure Is a Non-Human?, where even a hero who would not usually hit a girl has no qualms about it if she is some kind of witch, alien or whatever. In these cases, it may be more or less justified, depending on how obviously inhuman the female enemy is.
The opposite trope is, of course, Wouldn't Hit a Girl. When hitting girls is Played for Laughs it can be a case of Slapstick Knows no Gender. Obviously not present when a woman hits a woman. If the circumstance is designed so that women are only hit by other women than it is a Designated Girl Fight.
(she/her)
Bumping for feedback.
Macron's notes
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I don't see anything wrong with that text, so go ahead and put it into place (if it hasn't been already) if there are no objections.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 29th 2022 at 2:30:32 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
She / Her
I wouldn't link Administrivia.People Sit On Chairs, though I'm unsure on how to otherwise word it personally. Do you have any suggestions?
(she/her)
I don't like linking it either but I couldn't think of anything more natural sounding to replace it with. I might just remove the line entirely.
Macron's notes
(she/her)
Ok I went ahead and updated the description. I removed the definition bullet on the to-do-list and replaced it with a to-do for cleaning Would Hit a Girl's on page examples.
Macron's notes
She / Her
Just wondering, how come you didn't add the bullet list towards the bottom of the sandbox? (For the record and I could be wrong on this, however, I'm unsure if non-mods are supposed to do that without consensus.)
(she/her)
That wasn't supposed to go in the description. That was a guideline for how to write the new description.
Macron's notes
She / Her
I see. Thanks.
Crown Description:
Concerns were raised that Would Hit A Girl's definition is too broad, and that the definition should be rewritten as proposed here, here, and here. Renaming was also suggested. Should it be rewritten, and should it be renamed?
What about, as mentioned, cases where the hitter is fully heroic but the double standard is brought up In-Universe as Amonimus mentioned?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.