To-do list:
- The definition has been expanded to include the two sides coming to an agreement that they both have a point in addition to a neutral third party pointing it out. However, the trope is In-Universe Examples Only, so the acknowledgement must come from within the work. Remove any examples that don't fit. Progress is being tracked with Sandbox.These Wicks Have To Be Cleaned.
The title Both Sides Have a Point seems to suggest this is about a work presenting two opposing opinions/motivations with merit in each. However, if you look at the description it talks about a neutral character necessary to acknowledge/lampshade this fact. It has been like this from the get go
.
The Wick Check reveals that only 5 examples (10%) adhere to this strict definition. I attribute the misuse of 90% to the fact that none of the other X Has A Point tropes require a third party to acknowledge the validity of a character's opinion. In this sense, the trope sticks out like a sore thumb.
Then again, someone having a valid reason for their actions (from a certain point of view anyway) is almost a given and this creating a conflict with someone else's valid opinion is likely to occur in a work. So the question is how much tangibility we require for this "conflict of valid opinions".
The two obvious courses of action:
- Keep current definition and curb misuse (hoping that enough examples remain). Possibly rename to clarify.
- Losen up on the definition and allow the audience to decide if the trope is in play
Note that we had a similar issue with Not So Different where the decision was made to keep the definition and change the name to "Not So Different" Remark in order to clarify the narrower meaning.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 1st 2022 at 2:42:18 PM
(she/her)
Originally I was going to write it with more focus on the third but I wasn't sure how to make it clear that thawing a third party isn't a requirement for the trope.
Macron's notes
I'm helping!
We sorta zoned this entire thread out and today's a fuzzy brain day on top of it; we know the thread decided to adjust the trope definition a bit, but it still involves in-universe acknowledgement by characters on some level, correct? Cause this recently got added to Recap.Miraculous Ladybug S 04 E 26 Strike Back Shadow Moths Final Attack Part 2 and we're trying to work out whether it fits the new bounds:
- Both Sides Have a Point: While still under the effect of Risk’ powers, both Ladybug and Cat Noir have a fight with each other about what happened throughout this season. Ladybug is afraid to know Cat Noir’s true identity, due to the events of “Cat Blanc”, and since he never witnessed that Bad Future, she tells him he has no idea of what he’s talking about. However, Cat Noir rightfully makes her clear that, the only reason he doesn’t know it, is because she never talked about it to him. If anything, she just constantly pushes him away and keeps him in the dark about the true seriousness of the situation. Ladybug is left unable to answer him back.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I assume you know whether anybody in-show comments on both having valid arguments, so it's not just missing information. And I assume the answer is: no. That makes it viewer observation of the argument and not an example.
I'm helping!
They don't say any words that we can recall (it's been a while since we watched the episode) but it's possible that they get a "dang it you're right" reaction face or something. Would that be enough to keep it that we should actually check, or should we just delete it?
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
I think it should be deleted 
I'm helping!
All right, deleted. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Has any clean-up effort been started? The wick check showed 90% misuse.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
As far as I know, no.
At the risk of sounding snarky, if you want the work to begin, the only way is to start that work yourself.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I've told you in the past that This Is a Wiki. If you want something to be done about the misuse, nothing's stopping you from doing it yourself.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 12th 2022 at 12:30:23 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I just wonder in general how the process works after a conclusion has been reached. It is relying on OPs to initiate a Short Term project for the cleanup or is there some other established process to get things moving forward?
Edited by eroock on Sep 14th 2022 at 3:22:35 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Nope? Unless there's an established cleanup thread already or if the work is considered more complicated than suits TRS, anyone can just open up the related page and dive in wick-by-wick.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
Just go though these pages and check for misuse. Feel free to make a Sandbox/ page to track what's checked. A Project is only needed in specific cases, and considering it often means the cleanup flat stops, these cases are even less.
We've started to pin To-Do posts and use Wick Cleaning Projects more often to reduce questions like this.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
(she/her)
We still have to figure out how to rewrite the description. I tried to implement what the crowner decided on but Wyldchyld said that it looks like a different altogether. I don't really know how improve on it.
Macron's notes
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
It was mentioned in the meta thread that a description rewrite is needed. Does anyone have any ideas? I'll at least make Sandbox.Both Sides Have A Point using a copy of the current description, and then we can change what needs to be changed and leave parts that don't need to be changed.
Edit: Oh, Macron already made it and it's had changes made. Do any more changes need to be made?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 1st 2022 at 2:30:44 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Double posting because I think the sandbox looks fine since it covers the fact that the two sides can come to an agreement on their own, so I'll move it in three days if nobody objects (and if I remember to, since I accidentally delayed moving Denial of Animality's sandbox into place).
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Eh... went ahead and updated the description since, as I've mentioned, we didn't change much about the definition.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Master of the Multiverse (He/Him/His)
Add a neutral third party to acknowledge both sides' valid points.
Whether the two parties' point is valid is still YMMV without an in-universe third party, as audiences might call one's point moot.
Edited by YourEternalTroper on Oct 23rd 2022 at 10:36:50 PM
Everything that lives is designed to end...
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Voting ended in late June, but either way, neutral third parties have already been allowed since the beginning, and both that and mutual agreements between the disagreeing parties both have to have in-universe acknowledgement.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 24th 2022 at 9:20:34 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
~YourEternalTroper, in case you've missed it. Pay attention to the status of TRS threads before posting. It's now the fourth time you've proposed something that already was in the crowner after it was called and closed.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
OK, in that case, YourEternalTroper is suspended from workshops since this is a recurring problem.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Big bump. How's progress?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
(she/her)
I don't think anyone has been working on it
Macron's notes
Is there a way to make a trope for one where the audience's input about both sides having a point is possible?
Crown Description:
Consensus for Both Sides Have A Point was to keep the requirement for there to be a neutral third party commenting on both sides having a point, and make the trope In Universe Examples Only. Renaming to indicate that an in-universe comment is required (similarly to Not So Different being renamed to Not So Different Remark) was suggested, so should the trope be renamed? In addition, modifying the definition to allow instances of both sides agreeing with each other was suggested; this would still be classified as in-universe. Should the definition be modified that way?
Apologies, I didn't realise you'd responded, and reworded my post as I thought my question wasn't conveyed very well. It might not reflect what you responded to.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 7th 2022 at 5:13:23 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.