To-do list:
- Remove Real Life examples, characters that have a defined but fictional race, and examples that are just "actor has brown skin." Progress for wicks is being kept track of using Sandbox.Ambiguously Brown Wick Cleaning, and the description and on-page examples are being cleaned up using Sandbox.Ambiguously Brown.
Original post
So—-I know this has been to TRS, several times previously, but I have a specific thing I would like to discuss
I'm not going to touch the definition for drawing and cartoon characters, but the live action and real life sections are a mess. Real people are not ambiguously brown. My suggestion is to add a strict standard for characters played by real life people—
Characters in Live Action media are assumed to be the same race as the actor unless there is reason to think otherwise. Some possible reasons include:
- Two actors of different races play blood relatives
- A character's name, accent or clothing strongly indicates a different ethnicity than the actor
- The actors race would be impossible or highly implausible for the character (such as a Native American actor in ancient Rome)
- The actor is wearing some kind of Brownface or otherwise changing their features, but it's not clear what they're changing them to.
A character could also be ambiguously brown In-Universe if the other characters cannot tell what race they are
While I have this up for discussion, I would also like to suggest rewriting the definition, as it's currently 9 paragraphs long and has a lot of "note, this is actually..." "but don't forget..." which all kinda indicates being added on piece by piece. I think it could be a lot more concise and easier to follow with a rewrite, (not actually a definition change just a rewording)
Wick Check for Live Action TV and Film
- Dance Moms Kalani and Kira definitely aren't white, but they're not exactly black ether...
- Token Trio: Fenwick (sole black kid), CJ (Ambiguously Brown sole girl of the group), and Crispo (white kid)
- Ambiguously Brown: * The mugger (and implied rapist) whom Catwoman cuts up with her claws in the alley.
- The Series 3 finale introduces Zaf, an Ambiguously Brown Token Minority. The same episode kills off Danny, who was the show's dark-skinned Token Minority. In the Series 6 premiere, Zaf is injuried and Put on a Bus. Halfway into the same series, Ben Kaplan, an Ambiguously Brown journalist, is introduced.
- Ambiguously Brown: Laura, played by Amelia Warner who curiously has white parents but is quite dark skinned herself.
- Spicy Latina: Penny, although she's more Ambiguously Brown. probably? low context
- Ambiguously Brown: Kim, the picture of her father is black and white, never zoomed in, and his name is never said so one never knows what his ethnicity is. again... probably?
- Ambiguously Brown: Anja has dark skin and seems like she might be part Black from her features. Her mother is White and we don't see her father, leaving it unknown if he's Black or not.
- Ambiguously Brown: Typical for a rich school in the Philippines, there are a lot of mixed and/or racially ambiguous and/or light-skinned students. Chuck Santos is played by a half-white actor with an Anglo surname, Markus Paterson.
- Adaptational Diversity: The first incarnation of the Angels where all three of them are minorities: Jane is black, Elena is Ambiguously Brown (both Ella Balinska and Naomi Scott are biracial), and Sabina (the only white woman in the trio) is Ambiguously Bi.
- He promptly instructs a blond boy to fake an Australian accent and agree with him no matter what he says, an Ambiguously Brown passenger to disagree with him, and a female passenger to be morally outraged, filling (what he perceives are) the roles of Chase, Foreman and Cameron respectively.
- Equal-Opportunity Evil: The bad guys are led by a Tunisian, with an albino (according to the Bey) as the second in command, with a German woman (though Conrad claims she's faking it), three black guys, two gay lovers, an eastern European, and several white and Ambiguously Brown men.
- Ambiguously Brown: Beck. His actor, Avan Jogia, is half Indian, but the only thing we know about Beck's heritage is that he's part Canadian.
- Token Minority Couple: Paula, who's Ambiguously Brown, is secretly with Native Hawaiian Kai.
- Minority Police Officer: Gueacutedira is of north African descent, and Belkacem is Ambiguously Brown (the actress, Shirine Boutella, is from Algeria).
- Twofer Token Minority: Pilar is the only woman of color in the cast, as a supporting character. She's Ambiguously Brown, with a name that's also ambiguous (played by a British Indian actress).
- Ambiguously Brown: Ryan has very dark features, slightly tanned skin and green eyes. His actor Thomas Fitzgerald is Irish with some English and Italian roots.
- Ambiguously Brown: The real O'Brien is white and Irish, but is played in the show by a British actor of partial Indian and Tunisian descent (though the character, in childhood flashbacks, is also from Callan, Ireland, and those sequences are conveniently desaturated or color-shifted so we can't quite tell his parents' skin colors). In the second episode, we learn about his sister Megan, who is portrayed as an adult by Camille Guaty, an olive-skinned Cuban/Puerto Rican actress. However, in Season 2 we finally see their parents, who are white.
- Ambiguously Brown: Rainin Wild, who was played by a black American in-costume in his debut episode, but was replaced by a tanned Japanese man in subsequent appearances.
- Ambiguously Brown: Mads, her actress' heritage is a mess of ethnicities/races, which is confusing as her father and brother are white.
- Ambiguously Brown: Jezzie Pipkin is played by Cuban-American actress Elizabeth Peña. It's unclear whether Jezzie was meant to be Hispanic despite her surname.
- Ambiguously Brown: Billie is played by Sarah Shahi, who's of Iranian and Spanish descent. Though the actor who plays Billie's dad appears vaguely Middle Eastern and also has an accent, while her character's mother's White, what ethnicity she was meant to be isn't clear. Their last name, Mann, is no help.
- Ambiguously Brown: Bakuto. He has a Japanese-sounding name, but Ramon Rodriguez, who plays him, is Puerto Rican. His childhood boogeyman being the Sack Man
implies Latino or Brazilian heritage. In the comics, Bakuto runs a South American faction of the Hand. Of course, as The Defenders reveals, he, like Davos, hails from K'un-L'un.
- Ground Floor People assume Threepeat is Chinese, but he's actually Filipinonote .
- Spun Out Ambiguously Brown: Beckett invokes this about Nelson while they yell insults at each other.
"I'd make a joke about your nationality, but I don't know what it is!"
- Ambiguously Brown: There's a scene where Precious and Miss Weiss are talking, and Precious can't tell what ethnicity she is, and asks if she's "Italian, or black, or some type of Spanish." Not to mention that "Weiss" is usually an Ashkenazic Jewish surname and Jews of mixed race descent aren't completely unheard of. If Miss Weiss is anything like her actress, she should be bi-racial.
- Ambiguously Brown: Jamie. Justified as her mother cannot remember what ethnicity her absentee father was; possibilities include Greek, Russian, Hispanic and Middle-Eastern. note
- Ambiguously Brown: Woody uses his vague ethnicity to pretend to be people from all over the world (Kayvan Novak is of mixed British and Iranian decent).
- Ambiguously Brown: Key, who is biracial. He uses it to his advantage, just like he did on MADtv. In fact, both Key and Peele were born from biracial families (half-black, half-white), but generally Peele tends to just play black characters, while Key has a wider range.note
- Ambiguously Brown: Zan, the internet personality trolling Paper Boi. Lampshading this becomes a Running Gag in the episode "The Streisand Effect"; every time he's mentioned, characters ask something along the lines of "Isn't he Dominican?", "Is he Asian?", or (after he casually uses the N-word) "Are you even black?"
- Ambiguously Brown: Stu at first assumes that Vic is white, then hazards a number of guesses at his ethnicity, including Puerto Rican and Chinese. Vic shakes his head at all of Stu's guesses. In real life, Dave Bautista is Greek and Filipino.
- Ambiguously Brown: Nichols has brown skin and dark curly hair. This allows him to pass himself off as Jesus (Middle Eastern) and the real Brandon Nichols (Native American).
- Ambiguously Brown: Leslie often remarks on Ann's unclear ethnicity, which is never revealed in the show, though Rashida Jones is herself half African-American and half Ashkenazi Jew.
- Ambiguously Brown: Zach asks Rashida Jones what race she is.
- Ambiguously Brown: This is a plot point. Daphne is revealed to be mixed race, "a creole mother and white father" which lets her pass as white. She has a black half brother who's familial connection she hides.
- Ambiguously Brown: Karen, to Michael at least ("Wow, you look very exotic. Was your dad a GI?"). Her last name (Filipelli) and dialogue suggest she is Italian-American. Rashida Jones is half-Black, half-Jewish.
- Ambiguously Brown: Rex notes Lori's ambiguous ethnicity, hazarding that she's Baltic or Czech. Kunis was born in Ukraine to Jewish parents.
- Ambiguously Brown: Schmidt's impression of Cece, before she states that her parents are Indian. Hannah Simone, who plays her, is a mixture of Indian, German, Italian, Cypriot, and Greek.
- Jerkass: The Senator who gets his car stolen by Xander near the beginning. We even get his racism demonstrated when he assumes Xander is Mexican, so we know he's a jerk.
- Ambiguously Brown: Lauren. She's brought up an uncle in Syria and being in the Middle East when she was younger. Everyone had different theories.
Lauren: I'm from Long Island!Simon: But you're our diversity hire! If anyone asks, just say you're "other." *
- Ambiguously Brown: So Elena is supposed to be Russian??
- Ambiguously Brown - Ray, and Tina, but their child together is clearly white.
- Ambiguously Brown: Bryce, Tyler, and Taryn.
- At this point in the show, every named character who's black or Ambiguously Brown (except for Anthony, Anne, and Diego,) has been killed. Being black on this show is like wearing a Red Shirt.
- Early-Installment Weirdness: The first season was trying to find its legs. Florence wasn't initially a Servile Snarker (but thanks to Louise's permission, she became one), and Allan went from being Ambiguously Brown to straight up Caucasian.
- Ambiguously White: The nun named Janet, as far as her features go.
- Subverted with Nataly Green. An implicitly French nun as seen from the montage that implied she gets off from an Air France airplane and her name (though she bears an English surname), but the actress that played her didn't look rather convincing. The actress that played Janet (who is even credited as Marie-Antoinette) would've pulled it off better. this example is confusing and probably outright misuse
- Ambiguously Brown: Averted with siblings Sue and Johnny Storm, played by Caucasian actress Kate Mara and actor Michael B Jordan. Justified since they are adoptive siblings. do we really need averted examples?
- Ambiguously Brown: Many characters are some form of mestizo, which is Truth in Television, given how Filipinos generally tend to be mixed to various degrees. Antonio Luna himself was apparently one of the less mixed ones (a point of contention with his older brother, Juan, the artist, who was acquitted of the murders of his wife and mother-in-law in Paris on effectively racist grounds—i.e., that his indio (native) race was predisposed to such anyway). if they are specifically mixed in universe theyre not ambiguous...
- Jesus, however, looks incredibly Caucasian, thought He may have a tan or be Ambiguously Brown. It's hard to tell with the lighting. im not sur where to put this
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 29th 2022 at 6:40:51 AM
(she/her)
On the last page, I swapped in the description Tremmor 19 made back in April. They worked on it in the thread so it's not on the sandbox. Tremmor also cleaned up some of the examples on Main.Ambiguously Brown but I dunno if they are done or not. I don't have time to update the sandbox right now but I'll see what I can do on the weekend.
Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 29th 2022 at 7:47:09 AM
Macron's notes
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Do we still need the sandbox if you and Tremmor already worked on the main page?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 29th 2022 at 7:44:57 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
(she/her)
I made the sandbox for the description and example cleanup. But if most of the work was put into the actual article...I guess I'll just cut the sandbox instead of working on it. I'll review Main.Ambiguously Brown's example list to see if there's any misuse left after Tremmor swept the page.
Macron's notes
Waffle Cat (she/her)
Permission to put a modified version of my earlier post on the analysis page? Maybe it'll help this trope from becoming too plagued with misuse again.
(she/her)
I am fine with that.
Macron's notes
This trope is too unclear for it's own good. 
the Retromancer
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It's already past discussion and is in cleaning phrase.
I know that, just that with any race-related tropes such us this one we should all probably enforce some strict rules, and have a discussion to prevent any kind of more misuse or misinformation in the future. Just what I think.
Edited by ShayanthanYuhanthan345 on Sep 29th 2022 at 3:29:51 AM
the Retromancer
The new rules are also in place. Would help if you mention which part of the description is unclear and if you have idea on how to rephrase it, if it's not much we can still consider that.
Edited by Amonimus on Sep 29th 2022 at 1:34:53 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
I mean....If a character's diverse race is never acknowledged or even considered In-Universe should we even bother listing an example? I think that part may be unclear. Potentially. That might've even been where all the misuse came from in the first place. I could be wrong of course.
Edited by ShayanthanYuhanthan345 on Sep 29th 2022 at 3:43:33 AM
Waffle Cat (she/her)
Done.
reconsidering
main page all done! Will get started on the wicks
EDIT: cleaned wicks in Main/
will update
Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 9th 2022 at 4:04:27 AM
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
[1] Agreed, the definition of race in Anglo-Saxon America has always confused me, especially with the definition of "latino" as something different from white, asian or black despite Latin-America having an enormous range of races. In my opinion a better name would've been Ambiguous Ethnicity, but it's too late in the discussion to decide that anyway.
Edited by good-morning on Nov 11th 2022 at 7:39:46 AM
oh hey how are you doing?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
I'm doing a little clean-up right now and I've noticed that people just slap Ambiguously Brown into nearly any non-white character — even when the character has a clearly established race in the canon. Like, Captain Nemo is an Indian prince, and Verne's books say so. But no, let's not do any research.
Sorry for the rant, I just want to request if we can add to the to-do list that examples where the character has a non-fictional race that is stated by the canon, then that example also must be removed.
Here there be cats.
the Retromancer
It seems it was already discussed, so it's odd the To-Do focuses on actors only. We can also add when there's a real and unambiguous nationality mentioned.
Edited by Amonimus on Jan 17th 2023 at 7:17:55 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Waffle Cat (she/her)
It was discussed that, since characters are assumed to be of the same race as the character they play, then that doesn't count. What I'm saying is that, sometimes, in media other than drawn and live-action, a character is clearly stated to be X real-life race. It stands to reason that listing that character as Ambiguously Brown is clear misuse.
Here there be cats.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
The wick check didn't so use like that, so I get why it wasn't deemed important to list. It's such an obvious misuse that cutting it shouldn't need to be said.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Waffle Cat (she/her)
Fair enough.
Here there be cats.
How sweet it is
The cleaning sandbox finally got some use as I'm going through Creator/ wicks.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Waffle Cat (she/her)
Down to 4000 wicks. Edit: And one letter of the characters/ namespace.
Edited by Asterlix on Jan 20th 2023 at 4:12:29 AM
Here there be cats.
Waffle Cat (she/her)
The Series/ namespace has been cleaned.
Here there be cats.
How sweet it is
Was doing a different TRS effort; Characters.Game Grumps Made Up might be correctly using the trope.
Edited by Berrenta on Mar 21st 2023 at 10:21:43 AM
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
🍊orange fursona🧡
Bumping this thread. It's almost two months, and wondering if there's a verdict, and the Tropes Needing TRS backlog is increasing.
Edited by alnair20aug93 on May 29th 2023 at 1:54:58 AM
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
The header already says what the verdict was. Examples just need to be cleaned up, but I don't know whether it's being worked on.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 28th 2023 at 12:58:34 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sorry for the double post, but is Sandbox.Ambiguously Brown ready to be moved to Main.Ambiguously Brown? I forgot about it until I looked further back in the thread.
Edit: Well, it looks like the examples haven't been touched much (if at all) aside from wick cleanup for other TRS threads, so I guess it's mainly the description that's been worked on.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 29th 2022 at 6:40:21 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.