The Simpsons cleanup

After some consideration, I've decided to remove the Designated Hero entry on YMMV.TheSimpsonsS8E21TheOldManAndTheLisa for a number of reasons. It's redundant to the UU and What An Idiot entries, by far the most complain-y ("It's not a Heartwarming Moment, but rather sickening in its piousness"), and it argues with itself ("The idea that she could have used the money for good never enters her head, she just dismissed it as 'blood money'. Of course, because of the show's Negative Continuity, there was never a chance of Lisa keeping the money anyway").

This So OK, It's Average entry is from The Simpsons S 8 E 20 The Canine Mutiny:

What many fans think of this episode. It's actually not a bad episode on its own, but considering it came from season 8, which was really shaking up the status quo with convention-defying episodes ("The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase"), daring subject matter (at the time) ("Homer's Phobia"), commentaries on the relationship between a long-running show and its fans ("The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show"), some of the darkest humor yet ("Homer's Enemy", "My Sister, My Sitter"), brand new settings that took a lot of effort to produce ("You Only Move Twice"), set-ups for character arcs ("A Milhouse Divided", "Grade School Confidential"), experimental animation ("El Viaje de Nuestro Jomer"), some brief character changes ("Hurricane Neddy", "Brother From Another Series"), light dramatic offerings ("The Homer They Fall"), and wild, over-the-top storylines ("The Twisted World of Marge Simpson", "Homer vs. the Eighteenth Amendment"), "The Canine Mutiny" feels a little conventional and light by comparison.

If anything, this seems more like a Breather Episode for Season 8 overall. Not every episode is going to be over-the-top, dark or satirical, and some of the episodes listed here are divisive in their own right. Also, I brought this up here because I brought it up on another thread weeks ago and didn't get a response.

Well to be fair, Season 8 is the general jumping off point for classic fans as a lot of the original writers left including the beloved Conan O Brien, a year later and Phil Hartman died, and a few episodes haven't aged well, namely the aforementioned Homer's Phobia and people feel the darker turn was not necessarily a GOOD dark turn.

Conan had already left all the way back in Season 5. Also I think Homer's Phobia still has a good reputation, even if it's very of its time in terms of gay representation.

Homer's Phobia is a divisive episode, but it generally is considered good enough that some fans consider it the "last good episode".

I've seen many people describe season eight as overall one of the classics, but there's hints of the show's Seasonal Rot dripping in. Homer acting more like a Jerkass, third acts that end on over-the-top action scenes, pushing characterization for the sake of the story/joke, etc. The episodes still had a lot of heart to them, so it wasn't too bad. It was during seasons 9-11 that you saw these problems become a lot more prominent and the quality started to suffer.

If you really wanna push it, the "purists" only like Seasons 2-5 and dislike everything else. Like a certain Nostalgia Critic.

It's debatable on whether 8 is considered part of the classics same with 7 to a lesser extent and 9 being the last season with Phil.

People accuse the show of "nonsensical plots" in later seasons when Homer going to space and starring in a lawyer friendly Beatles barbershop group (Season 5), is pretty out there. Along with a bizarre dream sequence in Homer Loves Flanders (also Season 5) So the weird plots have been happening for a while. And some fans jumping off point is the same as Fairly odd parents Cosmo, when Homer had a pitch change for his voice from the more gruff deeper voice to the more silly voice most of us are familiar with.

Edited by Klavice on Aug 14th 2021 at 12:12:58 PM

Actually, didn't the Nostalgia Critic put Homer's Enemy, 22 Short Films, Homer the Great, Lisa's Wedding, even Deep Space Homer (all either during or after Season 5) on his Top 11 best episodes list for the series? I hate to be the pedant, I just don't want people getting the wrong idea. Where did the idea he only likes Seasons 2 through 5 come from?

Edited by harryhenry on Aug 14th 2021 at 8:42:24 PM

He later had a joke where he put a Tombstone and "Good Simpsons" 2-5 on it in a Halloween review. This was back in 2013 or something when his animator made a Treehouse of Horror style review.

Edited by Klavice on Aug 16th 2021 at 3:27:56 AM

I'm sorry. I just noticed this thread and wanted to check about a YMMV in the episode Secrets of a Successful Marriage.

This seems a bit complainy. I don't know if this is a commong complaint about the episode, but personally I think she is in the right, I don't remember her badmouthing him so badly in any episode not focused specific about it (and not at all in this episode), and even then badmouthing someone is very different from outright revealing intimate things of their marriages.

I know its been discussed here before and there's a cleanup thread already, but the Were Still Relevant Dammit page still seems poor to me. I did clean up a lot of the complaining, but it still reads like "episode references popular thing at the time a year after popular thing was out", which isn't what the trope is. Of the ones I see there, the only one I could see fitting is My Pods and Boomsticks.

Cut that, it's complete nonsense, I have no idea how anyone could think Marge is in the wrong in that episode.

(Ignore this)

Edited by TheRandomSurfboard on Sep 12th 2021 at 12:20:01 PM

Found this rather questionable entry on the Values Dissonance subpage:

• A theoretical reason for the show's purported decline is actually because of its politics and not because of its quality. The Simpsons started at a time when a guy like Homer — a 30-year-old who has no college degree — could still afford without help a family of five and be the owner of his own home, and that ability was starting to decline (hence Homer having to work a second job as a Santa on the very first episode); nowadays, that's beyond impossible, as the conditions that allowed it don't longer exist. One of them being his union job at Springfield Nuclear Power Plant, now that the labor movement has been all but decimated. Homer and (to a lesser degree) Marge are also apolitical, choosing their politicians on aesthetics rather than any real political issues they stand for; nowadays, with their social class and race, they would hold one of two extreme polarized positions: either to the far right, scapegoating immigrants, the poor and Democrats, or the far-left democratic socialists, who are opposed to the concentration of wealth on the rich. The one political theme in common back then and now being underfunded public schools.

This entry is based on a random theory someone stumbled upon on the Internet, is complain-y (it opens with "A reason for the show's decline"), it has awkward grammar ("the conditions that allow it don't longer exist"), and is just...way too political.

Edited by Shadow8411 on Sep 28th 2021 at 4:40:28 AM

I'd say axe it, The Simpsons was never really a political show, and the examples it lists fall into Willing Suspension of Disbelief territory.

I found this in one of the recaps.

I don't know, but I think this comes off as just the typical Lisa complaining permeating most Simpsons pages (maybe I'm just getting cynical), although I would like a second opinion.

Edited by ElBuenCuate on Sep 29th 2021 at 6:22:18 AM

Lisa is a VERY divisive character, and it seems like she's the most hated character on most TV Tropes pages from what I've seen. But I feel like this is more an issue for the Complaining Cleanup in general, as while this is a general Simpsons Cleanup, it should also be addressed by the Complaining thread.

I actually like Lisa and feel like while she's kind of cruel to Homer and Bart in several episodes, particularly the Restraining Order episode. I feel like back in S11 she still had some semblance of morality and wasn't just there to poke fun at vegans and Straw Feminist. So I say cut.

Edited by Klavice on Sep 29th 2021 at 6:52:05 AM

You haven't looked at the entries for D.W., then.

In general, kid characters tend to be overwhelmingly disliked for really petty reasons.

...especially prepubescent girls (I know that both Lisa Simpson and DW Read are prepubescent girls).

Edited by Nen_desharu on Sep 29th 2021 at 12:03:34 PM

I like Lisa too. I won't say she is a perfect character, of course, but is the one I normally side with the most.

But whenever she makes a mistake or anything, there seems to be more scrutinity on any of her misdeeds than on the other members (besides Marge, which I have also seen a lot of complaining about).

I'm a huge fan of Lisa Simpson as well (and her rival Allison Taylor). I generally personally agree with Lisa's political views, given that she is one of the best-known fictional progressives.

Often, Lisa ends up a little too much like a combination of Mary Sue and Soapbox Sadie.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Sep 29th 2021 at 12:16:57 PM

If Caillou or Manny are of any indication, I don’t think there’s really a slant towards girls.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Sep 29th 2021 at 2:07:06 PM

Don't forget Johnny Test! Dear god, that kid beyond loathed. This also extends to certain pets too as Angel Bunny while not nearly as loathed as he used to be, is often written negatively of. Maybe we need to make a kid character in general cleanup to prevent lewdness for certain characters like the P5 cleanup, and complaining for characters who are hated for being kids?

I'm well aware of the hate for DW, which is a complete Double Standard because if say Stewie Griffin or Louise Belcher is a brat, they're applauded. But I digress.

Lately, there seems to be a chip on a certain troper's shoulder regarding Sherri and Terri. Here are two examples. The first is from YMMV.TheSimpsons, and the second is from TearJerker.TheSimpsons:

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: For just being mild jerks compared to the likes of Nelson, Shauna and many others, the things Sherri and Terri go through are far more over the top and not even limited to Treehouse of Horror episodes. They're constantly shoved aside despite having decent potential and whenever they are brought up for more than a single line per season, they're usually getting killed in an obvious middle-finger moment. Nobody else in show seems to actually be friends with them ^note they're usually alone except for Janey (who's every bit as fair-weather to them as she is to Lisa). They might be the only characters in the entire show to have the "lucky" distinction of still being killed repeatedly even after their original voice actress passed away. On top of that, in the future they're shown no alternative but to be impregnated and abandoned by Nelson (implying they're doomed to the same existence as Mrs Muntz), and the few times they are friendly to Lisa, she ignores them. Because of this, the whole Alpha Bitch schtick comes off like an act from two losers who can't go even five appearances without something horrible happening to them. And to top it all off, the twins are treated as being irredeemably evil when the show puts sympathetic points than bullying teachers, abusers, scammers who swindle pensioners for a living and even Mr Burns, solidifying them as even more of an anti-Creator's Pet than Bart.
• "Treehouse Of Horror XXXII" Terri rejoicing at Sherri being decapitated in front of her before the same happens to her. For their alleged popularity they don't seem to have many, if any, friends besides Janey. It's possible that Sherri is not only desperate enough to sometimes hang out with Lisa but hated even by her own sister in canon. While she's far from nice, it's pretty pitiable when you think about it.
  • Between this and many other deaths , even outside of THOH, and their lack of screentime or focus outside of dying ^note This is the first time Terri has had any lines of her own since 2016's BFF R.I.P, where she was also killed. it's obvious that even the staff hates them too. And it turns out here that Russi Taylor's death has not softened the spite one bit.

Edited by Shadow8411 on Nov 28th 2021 at 8:15:45 AM

I don't think they count as they never majorly impact a plot afaik.