Jerks Are Worse Than Cleanup Threads

I can give you another example—Fullmetal Alchemist. The homunculi are guilty of planning a genocide. The Big Bad is guilty of already having done it once before. The Gold-Toothed Doctor, listed as a CM, is guilty of human experimentation on a bunch of people. Yet it's Shou Tucker who is by far the most hated villain in the franchise despite the fact that his crimes pale in comparison to the Big Bad and his subordinates because he killed his wife and sentenced his daughter and her dog to a Fate Worse than Death just so he could keep his job.

My question on this relates to how you handle this when the author clearly wanted you to hate a minor villain more than the Big Bad. I think Tucker was intentional since the author sent him to hell in the bonus pages (only character she did that too). Another example is in Sword Art Online where the author clearly wants you to hate Sugou more than Kayaba because of his Attempted Rape (Kirito even says as much). Can this trope be invoked?

Intended Audience Reaction

I added Katie Killjoy here.

Closed the crowner, since it's not changing much.

Also expunged the crowner spammer.

Shou Tucker is far beyond a jerk though. He's a Complete Monster for goodness sake.

He's similar to Suguru Kamoshida from Persona 5. His actions are more low stakes or down to earth compared to the main villain, but it's way above typical jerkish behavior.

This trope is not for when a minor villain is more hated than a major one. This is for when someone is hated more for being a jerk than someone is hated for being a villain.

The name and connotations is pretty clear, and yet people are trying to stretch what the term "jerk" is.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 31st 2021 at 12:59:27 PM

Does Adam from Metroid: Other M fall under this umbrella?

I'm not sure given that he seems Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Don't we have characters who are Unintentionally Unsympathetic listed? I'm looking at the page right now, and I'm seeing entries for Superman from Man of Steel, Admiral Holdo from The Last Jedi, Oscar from Shark Tale, and Scrappy-Doo from Scooby-Doo, among many other characters who are not meant to be complete Jerkasses.

So, is this misuse? Does the character have to be designed to be an asshole, or can they come across as one by complete accident and still count?

Edited by chasemaddigan on Sep 1st 2021 at 8:42:57 AM

Has "jerk" really just become "I don't like them"?

I mean, yeah, those characters probably don't count. If you couldn't call them a Jerkass, they can't fit this.

I would suggest if the character is so unlikeable, that the villains are liked more, they can count.

But those characters aren't disliked for being jerks, which is a key aspect of the trope.

I would suggest that Oscar is definitely a jerk. The problem is that the movie wants us to think that he's a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, but he's such a lying dick that nobody really buys it.

Oscar might count then; the others don't.

Requiring the "Jerks" part be intentional (the "Worse Than Villains" part is the subjective), otherwise it's hating them for bad writing which isn't this.

Speaking of:

• Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney has Zak Gramarye, one of the most hated characters in the franchise, even though he didn't kill anyone. Many people find him both utterly reprehensible and nonsensically written. To recap: He hid evidence from his lawyer Phoenix, causing the man to be disbarred. Then, he ran away, leaving his daughter Trucy to be taken care by Phoenix. Later on, he came back, trying to frame Phoenix for cheating at cards, even though that would mean that Phoenix wouldn't be able to afford taking care of Trucy. When that attempt failed, he hit his accomplice with a bottle, knocking her out. The actual Big Bad of Apollo Justice doesn't get that much hate, despite murdering two people, including Zak, and attempting to poison a teenager.

Besides noting the hate is due to being "nonsensically written", I'm not seeing these wrongful action as (driven by) jerkassery, at least in that those actions would be just as disliked for those actions even if they weren't jerks about it. Not familiar with the series thought. Thoughts?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Nov 11th 2021 at 2:16:09 AM

Can I ask a question. Does Paul from Pokémon: The Series really count?

I thought this was for jerkish characters who are disliked more then the bad guys. But Paul is after Gary, probably Ash's most popular rival. So an entry seems strange....

From what I remember of the anime, Gary is a jerk in a charming way, while Paul is just a Jerkass.

Gary's a jerk in the fun Awesome Ego way, and since he barely showed up in the original series his arrogance wasn't as grating. Plus, being the first rival from the most popular era in Pokemon history didn't hurt, either.

Paul was basically just a massive asshole to everyone around him, showed up a lot more often, and was shown to be physically abusive to Chimchar.

Also, keep in mind, just because one jerk isn't hated doesn't mean none of the jerks are. This is an audience reaction first and foremost.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 23rd 2021 at 1:57:09 PM

So on Sarah Z, someone moved this (in-universe) entry from Realism-Induced Horror to Jerks Are Worse Than Villains:

• Jerks Are Worse Than Villains: invoked In her Homestuck video, she cites Vriska's actions as more controversial because they were more down to earth than some other evil characters' actions. While many trolls had committed gruesome acts of murder, Vriska came across as a realistic bully and even abuser in some cases, hence why she became such an infamous Base-Breaking Character.

Thing is, I'm pretty sure Vriska was a villain for at least part of Homestuck, before she became more of an Anti-Hero down the line. She commits gruesome acts or murder and betrayal alongside her more realistic abuse, so I don't know if it fits the spirit of the trope because she's not just a jerk. I can't move it back to the previous item because I added the initial entry.

EDIT: I did notice that Vriska is listed as an example on the main page though, so now I'm torn.

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 3rd 2021 at 7:23:45 AM

On a similar note, under Jerks Are Worse Than Villains:

• Berserk: A complicated example, since Griffith is the main villain and a central character, but he's also the most polarizing not so much for his demonic evil as one of the Godhand, but because of his deeply traumatizing and personally horrific betrayal of Guts, rape of Casca, and callous discarding of his former friends, a situation that's relatable to an unfortunate many. While the other Godhand and most of the Apostles are just as deplorable as Griffith/Femto, they aren't as monstrous on a personal level and don't inspire nearly as much discourse.

My issue is this and his other evildoings are far beyond what would be considered jerkassery as opposed to villainy, even if it is more personal. I believe it was stated somewhere that Jerkass is actions/cruelty below Moral Event Horizon levels which is very much not the case for him. The point is also covered under Realism-Induced Horror.

Thoughts? Cut?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 24th 2021 at 12:53:17 PM

Griffith is worse because he's more personal, but more personal =/= jerk. His most personal act of villainry is a violent rape, he doesn't qualify for this.

Yeah, that's Realism-Induced Horror.

Yeah, another example I can think of that's more personal is Suguru Kamoshida from Persona 5. He's the Starter Villain, he lead the sports team, and his cruel actions affected the protagonists more personally than the later ones. He's defiantly far beyond a jerk as seen by how he abuses and creeps on the students, paticularly the female ones. (He's even implied to rape and drive one of them to suicide.)

I think that the description should make this part more clear. Sorry I keep bringing him up in this thread, it was kind of egregious he was even listed as an example at one point.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 24th 2021 at 5:48:06 AM

Should we add a disclaimer that jerks have to be seen as worse for traits/actions that are not heinous enough to be considered/treated by the work as outright villainy (even if they are otherwise villains), or at least treated as lesser villainy than the more liked in comparison villains?

On the page for JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Vento Aureo, this was written.

• Jerks Are Worse Than Villains: Fans often love the likes of Risotto, Cioccolata, and Secco for how unabashed they are in their villainy, but very few fans will admit to liking Zucchero, Sale, or Leaky-Eye Luca. The former two are simply greedy jerkasses who are only minor roadblocks to Team Bucciarati, whereas for the latter, he antagonizes Giorno for a reason that he seems to have made up on the spot, making Luca come across as an obnoxious equal-opportunity asshole.

The most that Zucchero, Sale, and Luca get from fans is just general apathy, and that's just due to them being flatter, less memorable characters than the other part 5 villains. So I don't think this really counts.