Victoria Cleanup

Oy. You could write a fat Designated Hero entry off of that portion of the book alone.

I know, I was just saying you wouldn't need anything else to make a big one if the entry wasn't already there.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Feb 5th 2023 at 3:38:52 AM

Designated Hero already has an entry lol

There aren't. The only time the protagonists fight white antagonists in large groups, aside from halfhearted skirmishes from the federal government, are when they fight the Deep Greens (extreme environmentalists) in Washington and the Zanies (extreme feminists) in California. You wouldn't think those would be ethnic states, but the narration makes it clear these are part of "Anglo America." When white gangbangers are mentioned, they're not mentioned as orcs, but as whites who behave like Black people.

The author makes it very clear that race separation is how nations are supposed to operate.

I vote both examples be cut.

I think these ones need rewritting.

While the story starts in 2016, Obama isn't mentioned. I don't think anyone who wasn't already a prominent figure from before the 90's comes up, actually.

Neither of these characters ever participate in combat.

What's left out of this one is that the apocalyptic chaos is driven entirely by evil Black people raiding and killing from their bases in the inner cities. "Order" is maintained in New England because it has its Black population conveniently killed from bubonic plague or voluntarily sent from their homes into rural areas to become sharecroppers, with no farming experience, and under threat of immediate execution or mass expulsion after a trail that isn't allowed to last longer than 36 after arrest hours at max. Or just no trial at all.

The Landwehr is a Nazi state. They just killed every minority. Kraft and Rumford don't like this because it's too industrial. Rumford explicitly states that genocide doesn't bother him that much, it's the industrial method he ideologically opposes.

Note those facts of nature include women being relegated to the kitchen, races being segregated, no religions except performative Christianity, no technology beyond the 1930's except when it's convenient for the plot, and the mass killings of anyone who disagrees with you.

This is rather amusing since the description and quoted bit are not examples of this trope, which means it should be cut entirely for being wrong. But you know who actually is an example of this trope? Kraft and Rumford, the two main characters! They don't participate in actual fighting, they actively scorn anything to do with logistics, and almost all their knowledge is theoretical and comes from books. Usually based on reading something involving Germans.

Reminder that purge in this first example is of the Stalin variety. And no one is forcing anything on anyone. Heck, the students are paid to attend classes. The second example leaves out the real reason why Rumford hates the resistance leaders:

The Cascadian landing force commander had already come out from Portland, and we flew in a delegation from the Resistance Council in Idaho yesterday. So they were here, but not here.

The explanation sauntered in more than an hour later, with the rest of the Cascadians. The Idaho delegation was headed by a god-damned woman! Shit, I thought, here we go. Not only are women never ready on time, they absolutely hate taking responsibility and making decisions. I should have guessed that even the Resistance in Cascadia would be infected by the old nonsense from the latter days of the American republic, including putting women in men's jobs.

Edited by Parable on Feb 6th 2023 at 3:43:14 AM

RE: [1]

Shit, how does the actual, canonical book version of events manage to be worse than "nuking a city to show how hardcore you are"?

But out of curiosity:

1. How were the police under Rumford's command? From what I know about the book, weren't the southern states ruled by a seperatist government not under the Northern Confederation's command?
2. Do you have a quote from the book about him manipulating events to let the massacre happen? I just want something to Ctrl+Shift+G on my preview to double-check this for myself.

RE:

Granted, the trope Appeal to Nature is supposed to be for fallacious arguments, so it's not as if this example is defending the book.

Edited by m-95 on Feb 6th 2023 at 9:31:58 AM

Tbh with how distorted these examples are could we report Iduemon Patriot properly again? The sheer whitewashing on this page is shocking

Depends entirely on what was reported on the ATT. If a lot of this isn't mentioned, then definitely yes. Old items can be re-reported if something severely problematic is found. Usually some past issues have been fixed(part of why looking for old posts to report is generally unneeded in itself).

The South had asked him to come in and advise them since they were having something of a low key civil war of their own at the moment. He finds them a paralyzed bureaucratic mess, falls in with some cops in Atlanta who agree to follow his instructions since they're disgusted by their government and sick of the city anyway.

Rumford had just saved a cop with no help from the Black civilians. He's taken back to the police station where he's told about the plan for the upcoming Commune. Rumford asks when will it be happening and what will the cops do. They don't know when, but as for what the cops will do:

After that it's just Rumford explaining what do do, then repeating himself to military units to get them on board with plan.

With the way it's written, it sounds like whoever included the trope actually thought Appeal to Nature was a positive "Natural, agricultural life is better" trope, with the bit after the comma, "which falls into a few obvious pitfalls considering they're the ones who get to choose what the facts of nature are," being tacked on to try and align with the actual trope definition. Without the context of the rest of the page, most people would probably have a pretty positive view of constructively building on the facts of nature, which is why I think it should be rewritten to at least reveal what some of those facts are.

I find it perversely amusing we can just tack the actual facts on to a piece of misuse and make it actually fit the Appeal to Nature trope.

I ran through the YMMV page last night while bored and unable to sleep. I noticed that while a lot of it did accurately call out the book, a lot of it took the side of "this is funny bad" or "interpret it as in-universe propaganda", with a handful of entries downplaying Rumford, and a Catharsis Factor example that I guess is just trying to be objective but comes off as biased in the book's favor?

The hard part is that we don't know how the majority of the audience reacts; if they're just hate-reading and mocking it, if they're legit fans, or what. So it's hard to know how much of the page can be cleaned, however anything that's factually misleading can be cut.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 6th 2023 at 2:43:00 PM

Going by the Amazon reviews, there does seem to be an audience for this book. I notice they all pointedly ignore the racism and sexism and praise the book for taking on political correctness.

On the flip side, the most active discussions I saw about the book were all mocking it. I just found out we even have a page for a roleplay that rips the book to shreds.

Edited by Parable on Feb 6th 2023 at 1:05:05 AM

So, hmmm...

Well, one thing at a time I guess.

In the meantime, should I go ahead and rewrite the ones I listed earlier?

Go for it.

And as for the Common Knowledge entries, I haven't seen anyone talk about the nuking being just to show how hardcore the main character is, but I take back my words about the alleged correction lacking context. Looking back, it's just flat out lying.

So what's the standard operating procedure when an entry is 50% false and 50% not verifiable?

Remove 100%, I believe.

It's 💯% this.

@86: Yeah, "political correctness" is pretty much code these days for "I want to publicly be a bigoted asswipe without getting yelled at".

Edited by StarSword on Feb 7th 2023 at 2:07:56 PM

Agreed. Not going to take that phrase in good faith when used by people praising something like Victoria.

Yeah, after reading Parable's posts, I feel like we should just slash-and-burn all entries on the trope pages, at least the ones made by Idumean Patriot. I'm not going into the whole "should we have pages for bigoted works?" issue, but their entries are straight up propaganda-by-omission, making the book seem like a thriller/war story with some reactionary views, when really it's gross racist/sexist/every other bigotry propaganda.

It also gives the lie to Idumean Patriot saying they only liked the book as an amoral story of equally evil factions making war, because if that really were the case, they wouldn't feel the need to whitewash the racism out of entries where it's relevant.

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Feb 7th 2023 at 11:32:22 AM

As much as I'm enjoying this from a mixture of Bile Fascination and reverse wish fulfillment, I would not have any objection to the above proposal.

At this point, it is a reasonable conclusion that any trope posted by Patriot is not factually accurate, which is sufficient grounds to delete the items on any other page, so no reason that couldn't apply here.

I mean, I don't think anyone would oppose us starting from actual scratch (assuming the page is kept; mods are drafting a statement). Like, cutting the page to build up an entirely new version in a sandbox is different from cutting it forever and it would ensure that none of what Idumean Patriot wrote remains.

I'd be fine with that.

Ditto.

Ditto to the ditto.

Starting from scratch is fine with me too~ Gotta do what you gotta do, really.