Trope names with outdated and/or offensive language

To start off, let me say this thread isn't some attempt to censor every single trope that has a slur, but a platform to discuss trope names that other users find outdated and/or offensive, such as the usage of slurs or outdated medical terminology.

Fag Hag is the trope that really brought this to my attention, as despite it being a widely-used name from the gay community beyond this wiki, it's faced vandalism criticizing it for having a slur in the title. I've seen similar, but far less extreme, discomfort with some tropes using "queer" in the name, as it's still used as a slur in some areas and it's a contentious point in the LGBT community.

Since we previously decided, after many years of discussion, to rename Transsexual to Transgender to reflect terminology more widely-used and accepted than the previous name, I'm curious if any other tropes would warrant this problem.

MOD EDIT, note:

• A sandbox collating discussed tropes is at Outdated or Offensive Trope Names.
• See also Prescriptive vs. Descriptive Language (we trope using the language that is used, not how we would like the language to be) and Trope Renaming Guidelines (it is not very easy to rename a trope, so renaming is done after proof of usage onsite [and offsite, if applicable] is presented).

Edited by Synchronicity on Feb 2nd 2023 at 8:54:52 AM

We've run into issues with this before. There was a very extensive and contentious thread to rename Hot Gypsy Woman that ultimately decided to keep the name due to a lack of better replacement.

I think doing this as a mass project is definitely the wrong way to go, as these issues bring up a lot of tensions and are going to need to be decided on a case-by-case basis.

I saw in the other thread the possibility of "queer" being a problem too, and that's a very touchy subject, since many people use it as reclaimed or as a snappier catch-all term, while others still see it as a hurtful slur. The offensiveness of that word pretty much varies from person to person. That'd be a tricky one to tackle.

There's also a generation gap on the word "queer". LGBTQ+ people who experienced Stonewall still remember getting name-called that word, while for my generation, it's an Appropriated Appellation.

People in Anglophone countries also are less likely to know the term "Romani" for the traditionally migratory ethnic group from Europe.

Edited by ccorb on Sep 27th 2020 at 2:05:45 PM

TV Tropes uses common language. We do not tell people what language to use. Descriptive vs. Prescriptive Language

Our trope titles should reflect the actual usage of these terms in media, not the terms that someone says we should be using (for any reason).

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 27th 2020 at 2:12:58 PM

It would be interesting when we get to 2.0 and have autonomous wikis in different languages. Values Dissonance between countries would make a difference in trope names. I imagine a Hungarian or Romanian TV Tropes would have to use their languages' term when talking about the depiction of the Romani people in their media.

Edited by ccorb on Sep 27th 2020 at 2:20:54 PM

For the record, this isn't made to be a mass project. More a place where people can explain any general concerns about tropes with names like this, and how to approach the issue. Prescriptive vs. Descriptive Language has a point, as with tropes like Fag Hag, the term with the slur is the most recognizable term for that definition, but there's a few trope names that might no longer be descriptive language, which is what happened with Transgender as that word became more common in the mainstream than the previous Transsexual and was thus more descriptive.

The wiki's over a decade old, and some linguistics have shifted in that time, so concerns about wat's not just acceptable but mainstream is a good thing to talk about. That's why I'm referring to not just offensive language, but outdated language.

Bear in mind that tropes that have died out, like Uncle Tomfoolery, should be exempt from modernization of their titles. If a trope mainly existed in Shakespearean days, for example, it should have a name based on the language used at that time.

Right, I think that's why most concern I see is with the LGBT tropes that contain outdated language or language with harmful origins, as most explicitly LGBT media is very recent. I've seen multiple people express issues with trope drafts that use "queer," for example, as it's a contentious word in recent years among the LGBT community, but also the most inclusive word since we typically don't use acronyms in titles.

Another example I can think of is Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite: while the trope is still in play in modern media such as Steven Universe, the word "hermaphrodite" has fallen out of favor and is often considered offensive, something that was pointed out back in 2014 but doesn't seem to be an urgent issue or sparking misuse. I just think it's worth discussing how multiple tropes have sparked discussions like this.

I've also heard the occasional complaint about Eskimos Aren't Real; the various indigenous people of Canada, Alaska and Greenland to whom that term is intended to refer are not fond of it these days. Also, the trope isn't even about them.

Inuit Arent Real?

I've always thought that name was unclear, offensiveness of it aside. Does not solve the actual concern of it being about someone not knowing something actually exists.

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 27th 2020 at 5:42:01 AM

Can we just make it so it isn't referring to any specific people or things?

Doesnt Believe In Narwhals, perhaps?

Probably, but nothing is immediately springing to mind...

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Sep 27th 2020 at 3:44:30 AM

I'll always push back against the complaints about "queer". While it's contentious, it's:

1. a reclaimed term for people who choose to use it, not an automatic slur (gotta look at the context)
2. widely used in academic and media circles (Queer Studies, Queer Literature, etc.), and those media links make it appropriate for a media tropes site,
3. doesn't have an equivalent we could substitute where it's used, besides shoving in an acronym every time (and some people will intentionally omit the Q or the T)

I empathize with people who push back because they've had it used against them; that's coming from a place of genuine pain that they're reminded of when they see the word, whether that's in the past pre-reclamation or more recent in some regions. That's very different from people who complain because they are (or they've listened to) TERFs and other transphobes who frame the term as "offensive" to them because they hate how the term is inclusive of all genders; it "offends" their own bigotry. But "is queer a slur?" is a debate that's beyond this site.

Unfortunately, TLP drafts proposing new tropes with "queer" in the title get auto-bombed by people who just hate the word regardless of any merits the draft has.

Basically, the trope is about a character denying that something is real because it's associated with myth, like a character denying that narwhals are real because they look like sea unicorns.

Edited by ccorb on Sep 27th 2020 at 7:30:29 AM

... dang, that's an odd name for a trope that isn't even about First Nations people.

I can't think of a title that doesn’t sound like a stock phrase.

TV Tropes by its nature tends to go for either the established term or the otherwise clearest name. Language does evolve, but as mentioned some terms become appropriated to take their power and sometimes appropriate terms become slightly less so even if not a slur (such as calling a black person a negro or colored, it might turn heads but it was a fairly neutral term 50 years ago and not as charged as the N-word).

I don't know if we need a dedicated thread for this because the potential list of tropes that fall under this category would be small. If you do find a name with that issue, grounds for a rename would be:

• Not an established term
• The level of offense is consistent (as opposed to the term queer, which is the Q in LGBTQ)
• The name is factually bad (the name is confusing, broad or invites misuse)
• The use of the term is unnecessary (some tropes ABOUT these issues often need a shocking name to get the point across)

If most of those fit then I could see an individual trope thread created on the the issue, but I mostly see debate on if a general thread is necessary.

Sorry, a little digress: I remembered we have a trope for "this used to be a slur, but not nowadays". What was the name again?

Get Thee to a Nunnery isn't just for slurs, put any profane language.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Sep 27th 2020 at 11:23:45 AM

I think that's still in TLP somewhere.

But yeah, I can at least give some context behind the Hot Gypsy Woman debacle. Basically, over the course of a long TRS debate, we came to the conclusion that, as outdated and offensive as the word is, it's also the only word that properly encapsulated the trope we were going for- which is an outdated stereotype trope and one that isn't Roma-specific.

Because someone had gone over the page years ago and changed everything to be about the Romani it's hard for us to determine what is and isn't about literal Romani, and for Americans like myself, "Gypsy" isn't seen as a slur because to a lot of us, "Gypsys" aren't actual people- as in, they come off more like fiction, as we have less history with them and so we just think of the fictional stereotypes and it comes of...well, like a fairytale.

So yeah, Hot Gypsy Woman will probably never change as there's no way for us to rename it without somehow making the trope too narrow or too broad.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 27th 2020 at 11:28:17 AM

Eskimos Aren't Real: What about Arbitrary Denial? (No relation to I Reject Your Reality.)

Too close to Arbitrary Skepticism

The title has to be clear that it's about being skeptic to something that exists in Real Life.

Does "Of Course Narwhals Dont Exist" sound too stock phrasey?

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Sep 29th 2020 at 7:43:03 AM