Ambiguous Disorder/Diagnosed by the Audience Cleanup

A TRS thread for Ambiguous Disorder was deemed unnecessary. Common misuse includes armchair diagnoses and anyone who is just weird (which is Cloudcuckoolander). See also Sandbox.Ambiguous Disorder Wick Check for examples.

Yeah... I think the main issue is the definition is a bit unclear and creator intent can be hard to gauge when saying characters are supposed to have a disorder, but it isn't named.

Basically, as a rule of thumb: If your behavior doesn't significantly and negatively impact your quality of life, well-being and desired relationship with others, you don't have a mental disorder.

@ Macron Notes, yes, that bolded part does have Unfortunate Implications. People with autism/ADHD/depression/etc. often show their symptoms differently. Basically it gives me ableist "you belong in a Bedlam House or you're neurotypical" vibes.

Edited by ccorb on Oct 14th 2020 at 9:18:44 AM

No one ever answered my question about what a good example would look like

I think the Fleabag example is too light on context because it doesn't mention any specific behaviors besides just being weird and creepy, but the Set It Up example fares better since it mentions specific things that hint at an ingrained misunderstanding of how to function in the world. But it does sound more like Cloudcuckoolander and, TBH, I'm not sure exactly what our distinction is between that trope and this one if we don't want to go into specific mental disorder symptoms.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 14th 2020 at 9:36:06 AM

Ambiguous Disorder’s description says that it has to go beyond beyond ordinary quirkiness (which was potholed to Cloud Cuckoolander) and I think keeping plants knowing that they would die miight count but yeah the line between CCL and AD isn’t clear (Not exactly sure what a good example of Ambigious Disorder still)

I wonder if the TRS thread should be reevaluated in light of evidence that the definition is unclear. The description reads like The Same, but More to Cloudcuckoolander and seems to encourage Speculative Troping.

Edited by LaundryPizza03 on Oct 27th 2020 at 7:19:20 AM

Removed the example from Dewey Duck's page because it was entirely "these details suggest Dewey has ADHD", no ambiguity.

So the idea that Word of God confirming a character is autistic warrants removal from the page has been brought into question as it appeared to be a unilateral decision. What do you guys think?

Since we can't agree on what the trope is supposed to be, I think we should just take it back to TRS. I feel that the mod who declined the last thread was wrong to do so.

I've removed the following for being trope misuse.

When the show first started in 2013, there were so many people insisting on Ruby being this trope that eventually the creators had to state there was nothing wrong with her and any similarities to real life disorders are accidental. I haven't seen anyone try to add her back to this in years.

Nora is a bog-standard Genki Girl example.

• RWBY
  • Ruby Rose is a hyperactive Genki Girl who's obsessed with weapons, to the point of being more interested in checking out everyone's cool weapons once she arrives at school rather than actually making friends, clearly expecting to rely on her sister in social interactions. She mellows out after the first few seasons.
  • Nora manages to rival Ruby for hyperactivity, as her Establishing Character Moment is a Motor Mouth monologue that derails into a tangent about sloths. She's also incredibly impulsive. In contrast, her friend Ren rarely speaks.

What I would like a second opinion is this entry, which was recently added to Lie Ren's character sheet (same show):

• Ambiguous Disorder: While initially appearing to just be The Quiet One, as he begins emoting more from Volume 4 on, Ren has begun displaying various signs of mental trauma. In particular:
  • Several times Ren has demonstrated potential traits of PTSD over the night Kuroyuri fell and watching his parents die, charging at the thing responsible, the Nuckelavee, in a blind rage regardless of his own safety, and requiring Nora smack him back to his senses. As a result, he appears to have made Jaune and Nora his living emotional crutches, as he's made clear he considers the two family, and doesn't want to lose either of them, even letting out a Big "NO!" when it looked like they were going to be killed by Cordovin. This later expands to include Oscar, as he expresses immense concern when The Hound kidnaps him, and is left in a very bad mood after he has to let Oscar go so he can save Yang and Jaune.
    • This seems like a stretching to me. During the Nuckelavee fight, he went into Roaring Rampage of Revenge because It's Personal. At the end of the fight, he ritually slayed the monster's heads and arms stating who he was obtaining the revenge for. Beacon Academy encourages its teams to become families (they live, sleep, eat, work, train and study together). Both hero teams (RWBY and JNPR) have stated they're family to each other, and every hero who knows Oscar's been kidnapped is worried sick about him.
  • He demonstrates several traits of Imposter Syndrome, regularly expressing the idea neither he nor any of the others were ready to be Huntsmen after Ironwood licensed them, and, when giving his "The Reason You Suck" Speech to Yang, dismissing his accomplishments with the idea he's "just an orphan from the middle of nowhere".
    • At the end of the previous volume, and throughout the current volume, he has expressed imposter syndrome — the kids have all been made fully licenced Huntsmen without completing their four-year education first; he's feeling the pressure and has outright stated they're screwing up because they weren't ready to become Huntsmen yet. Because he's outright stated this feeling several times, there's nothing ambiguous about it.
  • He demonstrates severe levels of Emotional Repression. Several times, it is clear he is not in a good place and clearly uncomfortable, but instead of saying what's bothering him, he continuously bottles up his emotions until he lets them out in an outburst, later taking to passive aggressive sniping if very agitated. Nora tries calling him out on this at Robyn's rally, but Ren continues to refuse to talk, requiring Nora give him a Big Damn Kiss instead, only to still fail thanks to Tyrian's massacre. When he tries this on Yang after they and Jaune are left stranded in the outskirts of Solitas, she refuses to leave him alone despite his repeated insistence they just keep moving, and pushes him to the point he gives her a "The Reason You Suck" Speech, accidentally coming across harsher than intended when talking to Jaune, and making Yang accuse him of trying to push people away. As a result, he closes in further on himself and ignores Jaune's attempt at telling him You Are Not Alone.
    • He is The Stoic and The Quiet One. Something has been bothering him that's been building for a volume and a half, but nobody can get him to admit what it is. It seems to have been a build-up to his innate superpower (which is the ability to mask emotions) evolving into The Empath (unmasking emotions). But we're dealing with a plot-point that seems to be about character development. So, this entry is basically turning "plot happens" into Ambiguous Disorder.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 31st 2020 at 2:30:52 PM

Found these on Characters.Finding Nemo under Darla and Gerald’s folders:

• Ambiguous Disorder: Due to her emotional instability, hyperactivity and is oddly babyish by nature, she does seem to suffer from unknown mental disorder.

• Ambiguous Disorder: From the way he's portrayed, there's clearly something not quite right about him.

I haven’t watched Finding Nemo in a while, but the former entry just seems like an 8-year-old girl acting like, well, an 8-year-old girl. And the latter seems to be applying the trope to just general Cloudcuckoolander-ness.

Agreed that Darla doesn't really quite fit, but while the second is a ZCE, I do vaguely remember Gerald being singled out as slow-witted and sort of "special" cuz he doesn't talk. I know the way they talk about Becky sort of sounded like Ambiguous Disorder, but the issue is more that she and Gerald both act more feral than the other animals. Can you really apply AD here when it's more about animalistic behavior?

Hard nope on Darla. She's an Eight-year-old girl whose every whim is catered to, and who is never given guidance by the adult figure in the story. Predictably, she behaves like what she is: a spoiled brat.

hey, i wrote this entry on Star★Twinkle Pretty Cure a while back (after a discussion with a friend about positive examples of autistic-coded characters in media), and i wasn't sure what to put it under so i went with ambiguous disorder. from the looks of it, this falls under what the wick check categorizes as "armchair diagnosis", though. my friend and i are both autistic so we discussed the points that made this character relatable, but i think i misunderstood what "ambiguous disorder" is supposed to cover. is there a better trope this falls under, or should i just cut it?

• Ambiguous Disorder: Aspects of her personality imply she may be on the autism spectrum: she has difficulty reading social cues and keeping secrets, she is easily enveloped in the things that interest her (which is explicitly noted by her grandmother in episode 36), and she has difficulty paying attention to things that she isn't interested in (as seen in episode 3, where she becomes impatient while Lala tries to run data analysis). Her interest in space, in particular, can be seen as a type of hyperfixation. Additionally, a flashback shows that Hikaru was bullied as a child for her odd behavior, and Ryou-san tells her at one point "you've always thought that others are others, and you're you," indicating her disconnect from what others consider "normal".

That is an "armchair diagnosis" misuse, but it could be valid as Alternative Character Interpretation.

alright, will move it to that

Thoughts on this one from Characters.Persona 5 The Phantom Thieves Of Hearts Second Half in regards to the character Futaba Sakura?

• Though her change of heart helps her overcome this gradually, her auditory and visual hallucinations, paranoia, and suicidal ideation are highly suggestive of PTSD resulting from her mother's death.
• Many of the traits that make her socially awkward — difficulty with interpersonal interaction, a tendency to become hyper-fixated, a narrow strait of interests, a tendency to not make eye contact when speaking, attempting to categorize every part of her life by a logical system — look a lot like those associated with autism spectrum disorders. Erica Lindbeck has gone on record saying that she played Futaba as if she might have been on the spectrum.
• Even after her change of heart, Futaba continues to display traits typically associated with Agoraphobia, a severe Anxiety-Disorder. Agoraphobia can lead to an individual suffering a panic attack if they are placed in what they perceive as a stressful situation and lead to avoidance behavior. Of course, this would be incredibly difficult to overcome after two years, especially for an autistic girl recovering from PTSD who just had her entire daily routine upended (even if it was at her own request).

All three points try to put a name to a disorder, but the second one apparently has some backing where the English voice actress voiced the character is if on the spectrum (link's dead, but point still stands). Given this is a Japanese character who was a Hikikomori for two years, I'd chalk this up to the creators just creating a Moe-filled female otaku for some easy points but wasn't sure if the English voice actress's statement puts at least that point into a different trope. I don't think it's Disease by Any Other Name as in story, she's mainly just seen as a quirky character.

Edited by YourIdeas on Mar 18th 2021 at 11:11:04 AM

Please would it be possible to have feedback on the Ren entry I posted here.

Is it okay if I remove his entry from the page for misuse?

From JulianSmith.tv:

• Ambiguous Disorder: Jeffry. One advertiser asks if he's retarded, but both Julian and Jeffry insist his behavior is because he ate a jellyfish.

First of all, what behavior? This example tells us nothing. Second, an AD example that amounts to "X might be (R-word)" is extremely offensive, not to mention the use of an ableist slur.

We can use the word if it's a direct quote, and I assume it is in this case. I agree it needs more context though.

I'll comment it out for now.

Does anyone watch Sex Education? I wanted to put an example on Adam Groffs folder but I’m having a hard time nailing the description down.

I have been wondering about the exact parameters for Ambiguous Disorder for a while, and one thing I'm curious about is whether it should prioritize in-universe speculation (as Synchronicity previously suggested) to keep examples more focused.

For instance, in Azumanga Daioh, Osaka, Sakaki, and Kagura all show traits that parallel neurodivergence^note for instance, Osaka shows sensory sensitivities and chronic inattentiveness, while all three show hyperempathy, unconventional forms of socialization, and what could be construed as special interests and hyperfixations, but only Osaka is speculated in-universe to have something that could be diagnosable. The specific moment for her is in the "Osaka's Half Day" chapter (the hiccups bit), where Sakaki suspects that Osaka's endless hiccups might be the result of being "sick in the brain," and everyone but Osaka reacts with a realizing "oh!" Yomi then comments that it would explain her odder aspects, referring to her cognitive and behavioral abnormalities ("you just act weird sometimes"). Nothing like this occurs for Sakaki herself or for Kagura.

Edited by bowserbros on Sep 23rd 2021 at 5:50:21 AM

As I said in the TRS meta thread, to moving to Long-Term. This seems like a trope that, no matter what we do to it, will always be misused a lot (like Nightmare Fuel, Overshadowed by Controversy, and so on), so a Long-Term move would work IMO.