Death Battle cleanup

Ryuko could kill him in base form except Shadow is way too fast for her to do anything, so Shadow wears her out in attrition before going Super Shadow. It's basically like the Crash vs. Spyro episode, where both combatants couldn't really kill each other until Spyro activates Dark Spyro, which obliterates Crash without much effort.

Here's what the entry could look like.

• Shadow vs. Ryūko Matoi starts out a pretty even affair... until Shadow taps into the Chaos Emeralds' power. The moment he becomes Super Shadow, he oblierates Ryūko with almost no effort. The analysis makes this even more poignant by revealing that while Super Shadow could kill Ryūko, Ryūko simply could not kill Shadow, let alone Super Shadow.

I don't like the interpretation that if a character has a durability feat of surviving X amount of force, they can't be harmed by anything weaker than that. Unless, of course, you want to argue that a Goomba can attack with the force of a nuclear warhead.

Edited by Zuxtron on Mar 25th 2021 at 3:48:46 PM

My write-up:

• "Shadow VS Ryuko" doesn't start off as a Curb-Stomp Battle: Ryuko's greatest feats indicate that she would theoretically be able to inflict some serious damage to Shadow, though even then, Shadow still has the advantage as he's fast enough to dodge most of Ryuko's attacks. And that's only as long as Shadow is in his base form: the moment he goes Super, the fight may as well be over. Normally, Shadow's power is equivalent to one Chaos Emerald, which Ryuko can keep up with, but Super Shadow taps into seven of them, making him that much more powerful. There's nothing Ryuko can really do to hurt Super Shadow, while his power is more than enough to annihilate her. In the end, Ryuko only stands any kind of a chance while she's at her strongest and Shadow is at his weakest.

(Should I submit the removals suggested earlier? I'd like a second opinion)

I think the latter writeup covered most of the bases, but it is probably also worth adding Tehrannotaur's point on how quickly Shadow winds up finishing the fight once he goes super.

I'll expand on my entry

• Shadow vs. Ryūko Matoi starts out a pretty even affair... until Shadow taps into the Chaos Emeralds' power. The moment he becomes Super Shadow, he obliterates Ryūko with almost no effort. The analysis makes this even more poignant by revealing that while Super Shadow could kill Ryūko, Ryūko simply could not kill Shadow, let alone Super Shadow. Even the fight animation reflects it: Shadow is clearly in control throughout the whole fight, dodging most of Ryūko's attacks before landing the killing blow to her.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Mar 26th 2021 at 1:24:41 AM

I don't agree with saying that Ryuko would not be able to kill base Shadow. The post-fight analysis says that Ryuko has more than enough power to deal a killing blow, with the only issue being that Shadow's greater speed would make it hard for her to land such a hit. So in theory, there are situations where Ryuko could manage to catch Shadow off-guard or land a lucky shot and claim the victory, which is why it only truly becomes a stomp after he turns into Super Shadow.

Edited by Zuxtron on Mar 26th 2021 at 2:12:42 PM

how about this

• Shadow vs. Ryūko Matoi starts out a pretty even affair... until Shadow taps into the Chaos Emeralds' power. The moment he becomes Super Shadow, he obliterates Ryūko with almost no effort. The analysis makes this even more poignant by revealing that while Ryūko can kill Shadow, it's only in his base form, and even then his far superior speed allows him to wear her out in a game of attrition, making it moot. Even the fight animation reflects it: Shadow is clearly in control throughout the whole fight, dodging most of Ryūko's attacks before landing the killing blow to her.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Mar 26th 2021 at 9:55:28 AM

Looks good!

Slight rewording:

• Shadow VS Ryūko starts out a pretty even affair... until Shadow taps into the Chaos Emeralds' power. The moment he becomes Super Shadow, he obliterates Ryūko with almost no effort. The analysis makes this even more poignant by revealing that Ryūko is only strong enough to really hurt Shadow while he's in his base form, and even then his far greater speed would allow him to wear her out in a game of attrition, making it a moot point. Even the fight animation reflects this: Shadow is clearly in control throughout the whole fight, dodging or No Selling nearly all of Ryūko's attacks before annihilating her with his Chaos Blast.

I think Sasuke vs. Hiei's entry should be more detailed. Here's my take

• Sasuke vs. Hiei has a seemingly very close fight animation where both combatants manage to inflict gnarly injuries on each other... but the analysis then reveals that in reality, it wasn't close at all. The only category where both fighters are comparable is speed, with Sasuke having an advantage, but even then, Hiei's no slouch in that department. Speaking of scaling, Hiei's upper S-class ranking means he can be compared to other incredibly powerful characters, such as Yusuke Urameshi, whose punch with Yomi created an explosion that measured 4.5 million meters in height, which would require 285 zettatons of TNT, which far surpasses Sasuke's output of 364 teratons of TNT from his meteor attack or him being able to survive 27 exatons of TNT via scaling with Naruto. But even if it weren't for the huge discrepancy in power, the fight would still be stacked against Sasuke: while both fighters are Strong and Skilled, Hiei's abilities hard-counter virtually everything Sasuke can throw at him, such as Hiei's fire and ice demon heritage making him heavily resistant to elemental attacks such as Chidori, and his fire immunity and affinity with the Darkness Flame rendering the Amaterasu useless on him. Not even Sasuke's Sharingan and Rinnegan would make a difference, as Hiei's Jagan nullifies Sasuke's genjutsu techniques on him. Additionally, Human Path would be ineffectual as even if Sasuke successfully uses it on Hiei, the fact that he was able to fight as a disembodied spirit renders it completely useless. Lastly, while both can absorb spiritual energy, Hiei's Darkness Flame is not spiritual energy and thus cannot be absorbed by Sasuke and made into his own energy. With Hiei coming out on top in terms of both raw power and special abilities, Sasuke ultimately didn't stand a chance.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Mar 29th 2021 at 7:07:11 AM

There shouldn't be a Sasuke vs Hiei entry. They explicitly called that match up extremely close and the animation was also extremely close.

The analysis makes it clear that it was one-sided in Hiei's favor, from Hiei being able to take and dish out far more than Sasuke ever can due to his Upper S class ranking making him scale with characters like Yusuke Urameshi (basically Hiei dominates Sasuke in those two fundamentals of Strength and Toughness), to having abilities that basically rendered Sasuke's greatest strenths (i.e. Amaterasu, Rinnegan and Sharingan abilities) useless.

Sasuke's only advantage was speed, and even then Hiei's no slouch.

The animation doesn't matter cuz the Sabrewulf vs. Jon Talbain (agreed to be a Curb-Stomp) fight animation also appeared very close but then the analysis showed how out of league Sabrewulf was in comparison to Jon Talbain.

And to reiterate, the rule this thread settled on was "Allow examples where the analysis describes the matchup as one-sided, even if the animation shows a close fight." This is exactly the case here, a close fight animation but the analysis makes it clear that the fight was one-sided.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Mar 30th 2021 at 12:30:49 PM

Straight from the analysis

"Wiz: Well hold on, I promise there's a good explanation. This was an extremely close match. Sasuke was certainly faster than Hiei given his light speed reactions through scaling to Naruto, and technically he went through superior training, so there's certainly a few versions of this fight where he could use those advantages to take the win."

Edited by captainpat on Mar 30th 2021 at 12:31:27 PM

and then the analysis afterwards shows how stacked the battle was in Hiei's favor

"Boomstick: But we're always lookin' for who has the best chances to win most often, not just in very specific situations.

Wiz: Exactly. At first glance, it’s easy to assume Sasuke's enormous and varied arsenal could have simply overwhelmed Hiei. But to our surprise, Hiei had perfect counters for almost everything Sasuke could throw at him."

The analysis straight-up admitted that Sasuke could win only under specific scenarios but otherwise Hiei takes the win handily. This is just like the Roshi vs. Jiraiya matchup, where they said that Jiraiya could win but it's only under special circumstances, but outside of that Roshi has it all in the bad to secure the win.

"Popup: Jiraiya has some moves which could possibly defeat Roshi instantly, such as his Turning Into A Frog technique. However, these abilities are few and far between, require special circumstances, and/or are too-ill defined to base an entire victory argument around. Roshi's speed and cleverness can also counter many of these techniques."

Another point

"Wiz: But to our surprise, Hiei had perfect counters for almost everything Sasuke could throw at him. Being a fire and ice demon hybrid with elemental resistances, he's powered through electrical attacks like the Chidori before, and his fire immunity and oneness with the Darkness Flame turned the devastating Amaterasu into a mere annoyance."

"Popup: Like Amaterasu, Hiei‘s Darkness Flame can burn other fire, and Hiei has developed an immunity to it. Naruto and Kaguya have both proven it‘s possible to counter Amaterasu‘s effects."

Hiei's Darkness Flame has a clear advantage over Sasuke's Amaterasu. This, combined with Hiei's fire and ice demon heritage making him resistant to elemental attacks, and him being immune to fire (even the Darkness Flame thanks to his affinity with it) renders Sasuke's elemental attacks like Chidori and even Amaterasu useless against him.

"Boomstick: Sasuke's Rinnegan gave him gravity control, and that Sharingan Genjutsu was pretty brutal, but Hiei's Jagan gave him telekinesis and mental protections, putting the brakes on Sasuke's eye shenanigans. Even if Sasuke tried using Human Path on him to rip out his soul, it wouldn't have mattered, 'cause he Hiei could keep fightin' as a ghost!

Popup: Sasuke has yet to use Naraka Path in combat and it has too many unknowable factors to base a victor‘s argument around. As Sasuke does not know Hiei, it is unlikely he could force Hiei to lie or not respond. Even if Sasuke knew him, Hiei‘s confident and fearless personality would make this task difficult."

Hiei's Jagan nullifies Sasuke's genjutsu techniques on him and gives him telekinesis, which nullifies the Rinnegan's gravity control on him. Also Human Path is completely useless on Hiei for the reasons stated above (including being able to fight as a disembodied spirit).

"Wiz: Let's look at the Susanoo's meteor feat. By measuring the meteors’ size compared to the Susanoo and applying shear force, we determined his feat equaled about three hundred sixty-four teratons of TNT at most."

"Wiz: Well, recall how there were multiple claims that S-Class Demons could obliterate the Earth. Since most fights took place in the Demon World, which is much hardier than the human one, these claims were difficult to prove and seemed a little dubious.

Boomstick: Until Yusuke fought Yomi and they made that gigantic explosion.

Wiz: As we determined earlier, that blast was at least 4.5 million meters tall. At minimum, the kinetic energy of an explosion like this would equal about two hundred eighty-five zettatons of TNT.

Boomstick: That's twenty-one zeroes! Way more than Sasuke's meteor feat. Even if we halve it, 'cause there's two people doing the punchin', that's still over five thousand times greater than the Naruto moon slice.

Wiz: It's probably even more impressive than that. If the tree is actually closer to the clouds, and therefore closer to the planet, that technically changes this shot’s perspective. Which would mean the tree is actually even wider, the explosion even larger, and thus the kinetic energy even greater.

Boomstick: So when Genkai said an S-Class Demon like Yusuke or Hiei could wipe out a planet, she wasn't kiddin' around!

Wiz: Correct. While Sasuke is equal to beings powerful enough to slice and shift moons, he still could not match Hiei's strength. Even if Hiei was only half as strong as Yusuke, this would still put him well above Sasuke in terms of sheer power output and durability"

This shows that Hiei and take in and dish out far more than Sasuke ever can. There is such a disproportionate power gap between the two.

"Popup: As Sasuke and Hiei both absorb energy, these techniques counter each other. Sasuke’s Preta Path only absorbs chakra, and so could not absorb the Darkness Flame. This and his lack of advanced Senjutsu techniques means he could not create the Indra Susanoo, as it requires chakra equivalent to the tailed beasts."

Hiei has the advantage in power absorption.

Tl;dr, Hiei has such a disproportionate advantage in strength and toughness compared to Sasuke, and his abilities counter everything Sasuke can throw at him, how can it not be considered one-sided after everything was explain in the analysis?

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Mar 30th 2021 at 1:16:45 AM

and yet in spite of the huge difference in strength and durability the hosts still called it "extremely close". As stated before we can going with their interpretation of the the match up, even if there's a huge disparity between the fighters.

They said that at first. But then their analysis contradicts it and shows that it was anything but close. Even Wiz was surprised as to how not only did Hiei win when it seemed the matchup was stacked in Sasuke's favor but dominated him. The facts I listed above prove it.

You're using the same argument with the Genos vs. War Machine matchup to say that it wasn't one-sided when everything else proves that it was just because of this quote

"Wiz: Genos was certainly a serious threat in the field of battle. However, Rhodes held a solid advantage in many different aspects."

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Mar 30th 2021 at 1:37:11 AM

Because a huge stats disparity doesn't automatically mean a matchup is a stomp. There are other factors they consider that can close the gap like they did here. Also on the death battle cast they reiterated again that match up was extremely close and if they were to pit the two characters 100 times it would probably end being 51 to 49. So it seems to be that they definitely did not consider this matchup a stomp

Edited by captainpat on Mar 30th 2021 at 4:30:07 AM

That's an interesting video, but I'm not sure how much we should take a behind-the-scenes note into consideration, (especially since he later in the same video says he could not process what the data said for awhile since the data didn't make sense to his preconceived views on the characters).

As for entry detail, do we really need to include all that? It's an extended version of what's already there, but unlike the Avatars and Alchemy example, it's not really necessary? Could use a third opinion as far as that goes.

We do need to change Sasuke's name from being spelled as Sasuka at the very least though, lol.

oop

Just at the last second before posting I decided to go to the wiki for the entire DB analysis (dang that's helpful) and it does seem like they get pretty specific and say that "Sasuke had the speed advantage and technically went through superior training, and could potentially use these advantages to win." (which is potentially a persuasive argument for removal?) at first.

...And then they point out that he likely wasn't thaaaaat much faster, so I'm not sure how much all that impacts our entry.

This trope is frustrating lol.

It's not that confusing if we just go with what the crowner decided. Which was:

There has to be a curbstomp in the animation and/or the analysis, but the analysis must actually be described as a curb-stomp. If the hosts call it close, it's not considered a curb-stomp even if there's a large difference between the combatants' feats.

I agree with cutting the example, I think it's one I've suggested cutting before. Like I said, the hosts have put even more emphasis that usual on the closeness of the fight.

If the hosts say "extremely close" with many cases where Sasuke can win, and later clarify via Word of God that "extremely close" meant "51:49", that's a strong argument against keeping it off the page.

I believe that feats based on scaling and fan calculations shouldn't always be taken at face value. They don't necessarily mean that the character is literally a billion times stronger or whatever since we don't know if the author actually meant it that way or if it's just that Writers Cannot Do Math and Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale.

It might be frustrating since they do immediately go on to describe Hiei as several times stronger in most categories and immune to most of Sasuke's attacks. But we need to have some standards to keep the page from becoming as overly bloated as it used to be.

Would it be possible to get a new bullet under the Author's Saving Throw section of the DEATH BATTLE! YMMV page? Namely in regards to Shadow vs. Ryoku. A main ire that Shadow's fights on the show has always drawn is that the animations are way too quick and don't effectively showcase much of either combatant's abilities. This fight finally gives Shadow a proper, solidly lengthed duel against an opponent that doesn't trounce him easily while much more effectivley showing off the full power sets of both combatants.

An Author's Saving Throw would have to be a conscious decision to give Shadow a better fight specifically to address the complaints about his previous fights having poor animations. I don't think that's what happened, more likely, the longer animation is just because the show's been getting better over time.

Well seeing as it was the third time bringing him back and the previous negative reception, I'd be shocked if this wasn't taken into account at all during this fight's production. Even if it can be partly attributed to the overall show Growing the Beard.

This is what we call an Author's Saving Throw: a change meant to correct a mistake the author made.

Seems like a fair example? I'd like to see a hypothetical entry.

A good example similar to mine would be this:

Ryu returns to fight Jin in Season 5, who people found more similar and close in power to him than his first opponent, Scorpion.

On top of that, this is already in the section:

Vegeta vs Shadow has been widely criticized for being a massive Curb-Stomp Battle in Vegeta's favor. Shadow would later be pitted against Mewtwo, a character more or less around his power level, or so people thought, as Mewtwo ended up winning by about the same margin.

If anything a Played Straight instance would make a fitting addendum to a long standing entry that ended up being a subversion.