Denis Villeneuve's Dune

For whatever it's worth, Herbert's point about the Fremen is that they are vital (and virile) compared to the stagnant, decadent society of the Imperium. Even the more optimistic Houses like the Atreides are clearly in decline, and the rest of them are steeped in vice and depravity.

The Jihad (or Crusade, if that's what we're calling it now) isn't about the evil brown people tearing down Western civilization; it's about a corrupt society being overthrown and revitalized by a scrappy underdog. Having that underdog be represented by Arabic culture seems more like positive representation than negative, although you can count on some folks on the right to get pissy about it.

Heck, if audiences aren't ready for Dune's message, their heads will spin like lathes if the films ever get to God Emperor.

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"Yet another male messiah story"...

One of the founding premises of the Messiah plot is that women cannot access both halves of their genetic memory and are thus incapable of becoming the Kwisatz Haderach. In turn, every man who attempts the spice agony dies. Leto II eventually surrounds himself with female warriors, and the Bene Gesserit "witches" become the protagonists in the last two novels after we find out that being the Messiah is absolute shite.

It's not a straightforward "men vs. women" thing; it's much more nuanced, but try telling that to the culture warriors (on both sides).

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 10th 2020 at 7:51:32 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

What I meant is that it wasn't explicitly in the Ars article. I know that is what the book is about.

Oh. Oooh. The Jihad is a Crusade now. Subtle... This is like a Race Lift in both directions.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 10th 2020 at 1:53:45 PM

Optimism is a duty.

Should also be said that while its a male Chosen One, it's women who do the choosing. And a big part of the wider narrative is how all these patriarchal figures are basically pawns in a game run entirely by women.

Which isn't to say it's NOT a Chosen One narrative. It is, but it's at least deeper. It's also a story from 1965. It was refreshing back then.

I'll point out that if you read Race Lift's page, it's already in both direction.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 10th 2020 at 7:54:28 AM

But it is still a story of women empowering a male to be the messiah. The Woman Behind the Man is not much better than if it was men only.

Optimism is a duty.

Good point about the politics. Even in the first book, I liked the Bene Gesserit, even though they are clearly antagonists. Paul considers them enemies because they keep trying to control him and his genetic line, viewing him as an aberration in their great plan. Leto II considers them "almost what they should be", but missing ever so slightly. In fact, much of his reign is about crushing their obsession with producing a messiah.

Yes, Paul is the Chosen One. And being the Chosen One suuuuuuuucks.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 10th 2020 at 7:57:08 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

If anything, it is a refutation of female power: despite all their plans and power, their efforts ultimately fail, and it is their failure that enables the rise of the messiah. Not exactly a feminist narrative there.

Optimism is a duty.

But not an andrist one, either, because that male messiah proceeds to screw the pooch so badly that his own son has to sacrifice his humanity to fix the stuff he broke.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Oh, I wasn't aware of that part, is that in the sequels? I haven't gotten around to the book just yet.

Optimism is a duty.

I've only read the first book too.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

So a "maybe don’t wait for a Messiah" narrative…?

That and ultimately while Paul chaffes at being controlled by the Bene Geneserit, he also doesn't really have much a plan or vision while they do. Once he settles himself in power, he doesn't ultimately achieve much of anything.

Oh, yes. Dune Messiah is all about the pooches and the screwing thereof.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 10th 2020 at 8:02:40 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

It's worth pointing out that for all the stuff about Dune, the first book is really simple. It's at it's core just a chosen one revenge story, with a bit more political stuff than most and a complex world. Strip the fluff and Dune is a "Chosen hero's family is destroyed. Chosen hero barely evades death, uses his chosenness to gather power and avenge himself on those who wronged him". It's got cool stuff, a lot of nice worldbuilding, and some of the ways it does that is interesting, and it sets up ALOT of hooks for future plots for future books.

But it's ultimately a very simple narrative thread to follow. It's the later books that really have the more complex plots that are far more original and haven't been done to the same degree.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 10th 2020 at 8:08:34 AM

Definitely. The series deconstructs The Chosen One in both directions; It Sucks to Be the Chosen One, but pinning the future of an entire species on one person is a terrible idea. It should be noted that the series ends with breeding humanity to be immune to prescience, thereby rendering any plans that rely on prophecy completely impossible and more specifically protecting them from hunter-killers with prescience that would otherwise have wiped out the human race.

So since I'm new to Dune in pretty much every respect, I'm assuming Dune's a lot like the Matrix movies but with less pretentiousness?

Jason has come back to kill for Mommy.

Except even that ending becomes so weird that I honestly have no idea what Herbert was going for, and attempts to pull some order out of his remaining writings all failed.

It is perhaps one of the original Gainax Endings, an Ur-Example, if you will.

Ehhhhh. I mean, it probably shares some themes, but it's not nearly as in its own head about them, or up its own ass if you will. Believe it or not, Frank Herbert wrote Dune about ecology. Yes, the study of ecosystems, and how humans are shaped by them as well as shaping them.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 10th 2020 at 8:16:01 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Other than the chosen one thing... I don't really see the link?

And yeah is correct. The ending of God Emperor is kinda... meh,

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 10th 2020 at 8:16:15 AM

I'm talking about the end of Chapterhouse: Dune, or are we pretending that doesn't exist? If we're playing that game, I'd much rather we ignore all the Brian Herbert novels, which are soulless cash-ins.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 10th 2020 at 8:17:55 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Oh the Brian Herbert books don't exist.

I'm willing to not burn at the stake people who bring up Heretic and even Chapterhouse. But I care for neither.

Which Dune books are the good ones and the bad ones?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

You'll get varying answers. The general consensus is the first 4 are the great ones. Then after you get varying answers. Some people love all 6 of the original series. Some people apparently like the Brian Herbert books (I mean he keeps making them so someone had to buy them?)

Hmm.

If I had to pick a favorite out of the six (Brian Herbert can go spoon a lathe.)... goodness, that's hard. I seem to keep coming back to Children of Dune, since it grabs the reins of the prescience plot and really rides it into the bullring. Plus, I find the characters of Leto II and Ghanima to be fascinating, and there's some fun to be found in the superhero ending. Really, though, you can't treat them individually, or they'd make no sense.

When I first read the books, I had the hardest time getting into God Emperor because of the abrupt change of setting and characters — three thousand years into the future! After I broke through the wall, though, it became one of my favorites. Dune Messiah and Chapterhouse: Dune pull another Time Skip and character switch, and get really broody. There are some fantastic action scenes, though, and puzzling through the webs of plots and conspiracies is as enjoyable as always.

I don't know that it would be fair to say that Messiah and Chapterhouse are Darker and Edgier, since that would imply a point in the series when it wasn't about as dark as a moonless midwestern night, but the threat level is certainly escalated.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 10th 2020 at 8:30:39 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I find Heretic and Chapterhouse to be like when a tv show reaches a natural end point and keeps going? God Emperor is weird to get into, but has a natural ending. Heretic and Chapterhouse aren't bad... but also feel like unnecessary. To me they never shake off the feeling that the story's ended and they are spinning their wheels to try to continue forward. They aren't bad though.

Dune is definitely the easiest to get into. Like I said early, it's a simple, fairly common narrative at its core, but it makes getting introduced to the setting easier. I'll concur that Children of Dune is pretty baller.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 10th 2020 at 8:31:34 AM

I suppose it happens when authors really only know one story. They either keep writing sequels going ever deeper into the same story, or they write the same story over and over with different names and locations.

Optimism is a duty.

I agree that Dune is entry-level stuff. In comparison with the other novels its plot is rudimentary; it's like the opening chapter of a story that has to keep the reader lightly entertained while it does all the world-building.

Dune Messiah is an overwhelming tidal wave of politics and failure that pulls itself out of a death dive right at the very end. The most interesting part of it, I think, is Alia's character development. And teenage me admits to being fascinated by the weirdly erotic naked training scene. I'm quite sure that wouldn't be in the movie.

Children of Dune is the closest the series gets to the action fantasy of the first book, except this time the protagonist is an eight-year old boy who becomes Superman at the end. There's a strong Passing the Torch aspect to it as it lays out the foundation for the fourth book.

God Emperor was to me a shocking change of setting and tone. Mostly new characters as well. The themes of prescience are ridden to their last, gasping conclusion, and the best parts of the book are the "human" moments. Herbert does a fantastic job of making you feel along with the characters (poor Hwi!).

After that... yeah, it could have ended. The next two books, aside from being remarkably sexless considering their heritage, have the feeling of a Postscript Season. An intriguing and well-written one, but we never found out where it was going due to Author Existence Failure.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 10th 2020 at 9:51:36 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"