Wheel of Time

The show didn't mention half-swording, hasn't shown anyone else do it, and had Rand grab the sharp edge of his sword with an unprotected hand to stab an unarmed enemy who was waiting patiently for Rand to stab him because he developed an all-abiding death wish in the middle of a fight because he wasn't at as big of an advantage.

Half-swording can injure your hand. Doing it in this situation was especially dangerous because the sword is also burning hot. And Rand gets his hand branded for it, meaning he injured himself for no reason. That's why I said it was stupid.

And the doylist reason? The sword prop doesn't actually have a heron mark on the hilt. The put the mark on the blade, had Rand grab it because that would be the only way to get the brand on his hand, caught it in post production, and edited in a mark on the hilt with CGI. You can see it on the pre release material, where the sword has an unadorned hilt.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 23rd 2024 at 4:51:46 AM

I didn't mention it in my last post, but episode 4 indicates that the visions are wolf telepathy.

@MisterTambourineMan:

I mean, most shows that do the research for proper sword-technique don't explicitly call out each one.

This is pretty much how half-swording works, yes.

Again, the function of training means that this doesn't necessarily make a difference.

Plus, it has occurred to me that part of the purpose of half-swording is to improve accuracy—something that is pretty much never a bad thing.

(Especially if he was going for the heart—a pretty small target.)

I've already addressed this, so I won't do so again.

Sure—but if done properly, one can grasp an edged blade safely, I understand.

This is just the downside of training: one doesn't stop to think, one just acts as trained.

It is, as they say, "force of habit".

And as I explained, I find it to be perfectly reasonable, and not at all stupid.

No, I get the reasoning. I'm asking where this idea came from that they settled on half-swording because of the unadorned hilt. Right now I see no good reason to believe this with any real certitude.

Is it possible that this was the reason? Yes. But it's also possible that it worked out this way for some other reason.

(For example: it may have been the other way around. They concluded that half-swording was the likely method here—and I think that it was—and thus decided to move the heron-mark to fit.)

~

@VampireBuddha:

Is that the bit in which Hopper conveys their name?

That would make sense in and of itself, and well-caught!

But it doesn't explain the origin of the visions. That is, if they were conveyed telepathically, then from where, and how did the sender gain them?

That said, I think that this could work with my hypothesis that it's to do with the expanded senses: wolfbrothers can clearly have visions for telepathic purposes—which means that there's a faculty there that could be hijacked by the new sensory input.

A bit like what I've learned is called "Ideasthesia".

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Apr 24th 2024 at 8:21:20 PM

That's the one, yeah. I figure some wolves in the area were sending their memories to Elyas and Perrin. That in mind, yeah, your ideasthaesia idea definitely makes sense.

That actually makes a lot of sense—I can certainly believe that, too!

Here's a rough summation of the matter with the sword. But as much fun as it is to try and convince somebody that a guy injuring himself with his own sword isn't a sign of good swordsmanship, this is far from my only problem with the show.

Ah yes, a fairly minor continuity error. How terrible. No show, good or bad, has ever had such. :P

The explanations given there appear to be just speculation, and thus I see no particular reason to give them great credence.

I mean, under most circumstances I might agree with you!

But there are, as I've pointed out, some pretty significant elements of context here that I feel change that.

Plus... I had a nagging memory today about how it happened in the books...

Now, it's been a long while since I read the books, so my memory is pretty hazy—thus I've been looking for a reminder online. I'm struggling to find a good source—even our own page here doesn't give much mention to the incident. The best that I've found thus far is a summary of Chapter 15 of ''The Great Hunt'' over on fandom.com, combined with the text on the same site regarding the Heron mark.

And if that's accurate, then... it looks like the take on the branding used in the series is a fusion of two incidents in the books, which together form pretty much what we saw in the series?

That is, the sword is heated via the Power (in the books first by Ishamael, then by Rand). This brands the mark on Rand's hand.

The location of the mark is, as has been noted, different. But again, it's different in a way that I've argued makes sense.

As you've said, yes. And as I've said, I don't feel like arguing every single point, so I'll just say again that I disagree with those that you've brought up.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Apr 25th 2024 at 10:47:05 AM

So, do you think it's good writing to give the Forsaken magical regeneration and then have Rand, as you've speculated, "intuit" how to get around it the very next time he faces a Forsaken? Without ever discussing why Rand would try it out expect it would work? Giving the bad guys that kind of power should be significant to the plot. And it really isn't if it only comes into play once.

(If this seems like a weird thing to focus on, it's largely because Mistborn did something similar with a seemingly invincible big bad. The heroine in Mistborn won by learning about magic over the course of the book, putting what she knew together and figuring out how to negate the big bad's advantage).

Brandon Sanderson's big complaint with the show is that, however good individual scenes look, the show is only looking at making big singular moments and not about putting them together into sensible arcs. And I think this is an example; Lanfear can regenerate because it would be a big, dramatic moment, and then Ishamael can't because that wouldn't be dramatic enough.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 25th 2024 at 10:00:46 AM

I read it less as "gettting around it" than as "overpowering it": he stabbed the guy in the chest (the heart, perhaps?) with a sword filled to glowing with the One Power.

So yeah, I'm onboard with it as an answer to "how do we kill one of these regenerating people".

The heart is a bit like the head in that way: a classic way of killing the unkillable, if you can do enough damage.

You seem to be working under the assumption that Rand would be likely to, under those circumstances, stop and take the time to think clearly and rationally about the best course of action. That... doesn't make sense to me.

Look at his expression in that scene: he's not thinking, he's just angrily doing.

That is, this is less "Rand finally figures out the big puzzle to killing the Big Bad" and more "Rand, finally freed and angered by events, takes his Power into his own hands and delivers an overpowering blow to the Big Bad".

I disagree. Why should it be significant, and no more than a means to make certain enemies more dangerous?

Sure, and it was good in Mistborn, as I recall!

But not all works need follow the same formula, and a power used one way in one work doesn't have to be used the same way in all others.

And indeed, I don't recall the series making any sort of point of there being a puzzle as to how to kill Ishamael.

And I disagree with him. I think that what they're presenting is working.

(To be clear: I really don't care that it's Brandon Sanderson saying it. I wouldn't care if it were Tolkien saying it. They're both very good writers—but that doesn't make them right about absolutely everything in fiction, especially in the works of others.)

Also, Rand instinctively knowing he can do things is literally how he works for for the first three and a half books. Whenever Rand uses magic, he doesn't think about what he's doing, he just does it because he's a prodigy.

You said earlier that Ishamael let Rand kill him, because Ishamael wanted to die, didn't you? If that's the case, then Rand isn't really taking anything into own hands; he's just doing what somebody else wanted him to and is allowing him to.

There's not much else I can say about the rest of your post, as a lot of it boils down to "No, you're wrong", and I've been thinking about this show more over the last few days, so I'll just speak about my frustrations broadly.

This show isn't made for people who like The Wheel of Time. Every character has been changed somewhere from "radically" to "completely unrecognizable" and as of season 2 isn't even trying to follow the same plot. Main characters like Mat are sidelined so the show can focus on side characters like Stepin or Liandrin. The show runner has openly mocked critics on Twitter and comes demeaning nicknames for them, which I think says a lot about how he views the fandom.

When the show was first starting out, people who defend the show Said that whatever changes were made were required for a show. Now, at the end of season 2, where differences far outnumber differences, that same sort of argument gets repeated, only now it's morphed into saying the books just weren't good at all and whatever the show is doing is better. Even when the show can't be bothered to keep its own rules straight.

I looked forward to this show because I liked the books. But it turns out, this show is actually made for people who despise the books.

@MisterTambourineMan:

Not quite—although it's possible that I worded it poorly.

What I was getting at, as I recall, was something like this:

Ishamael was initially all-in on winning the fight, trying to blast through Egwene's ward. (I keep wanting to say "shield"—but of course, that means something else in this setting! XD; )

He felt secure: Rand was shielded by his catspaw, and the others might have been powerful, but they weren't the Dragon.

This changed a bit due to the sheer power of Egwene's ward—but not hugely.

Then the unthinkable happened: Rand was freed. Ishamael was already somewhat drained by attempting to blast his way through Egwene's defenses—and now, advancing on him with murder in eye, was the Dragon himself. He realised that he was about to lose—about to die.

And, in that moment... he accepted it. Death might not have been exactly what he wanted, but he realised that, even if briefly, he would feel nothing—and that was okay with him.

That, at least, is my read on the scene as presented.

I feel that I gave pretty specific reasons for my disagreeing with you.

Here I really, really disagree.

I very much liked the books! I still fondly recall reading them back in high school!

(Well, until the later ones started to become somewhat turgid—I think about the time that Perrin saved Faile from the Aiel—the Shaido, I think that it was?)

And, like you, I was excited for an adaptation of them!

Where we differ, is that I liked the adaptation that I got.

Yes, it's different—and I'm okay with that. It's different in ways that I'm okay with.

This I am sorry to read!

Not having seen it myself, I'm hesitant to weigh in on it much—but I'm not a fan of mockery to start with.

(I'll note that "critics" is not synonymous with "fandom", however, so I'm really hesitant to draw conclusions on how he sees the fandom based on how he responds to critics.

Still, to be clear: not a fan of mocking critics.)

Look, let me say this: I get that the show isn't want you want in an adaptation of "The Wheel of Time". And I am sorry to read it! I get that it can be frustrating when something that you love is adapted in a way that you find distasteful!

But also... this doesn't mean that it's a bad show, or made for those who dislike the books. As we've seen, I am someone who likes the books and the show.

(There's stuff from the books that I'm really excited to see in the show!)

I mean, let me make a comparison:

While I am very fond of the Lord of the Rings movies, there are a number of aspects of adaptation that I don't much like about them—that I imagine that I'd do differently, were I adapting the books.

But... others have disagreed with me quite strongly on that. And they're not wrong to, I daresay! Those changes that I might make would, I imagine, make the adaptation better for me—but not for those other people.

A good adaptation for one isn't necessarily a good adaptation for all—and a bad adaptation for one isn't necessarily a bad adaptation for all.

@GNinja:

I'll be honest, I don't remember this offhand! But if so, then that is a good point, I feel—and pretty in-keeping with the series, I do agree!

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Apr 25th 2024 at 10:30:26 AM

I'm trying to figure how best to phrase this, as you are trying to be polite with me. That's often more than I get online, and I don't want to discourage that.

It seems to me that you have a very active imagination. I don't mean that as an insult. I think it's a very good thing in itself. But I think you're prone to something I've seen others fall into - and have done myself more often than I'd care to admit - and that's mix up the things you can imagine with what's actually implied in the work. In other words; I think you tend to cross the line from inference to speculation without realizing that you're doing it.

Like your interpretation of the Ishamael scene. The way you describe that scene makes it sound compelling, but that wasn't the impression I got watching it myself. I didn't think Ishamael seemed particularly worried about Rand there, much less that he's given up on even surviving. (I also don't know that he'd find Rand that intimidating, given that he's already confronted Rand several times by that point).

You bring up half-swording, but I honestly doubt that the people behind the show were even aware of that. Yes, it does resemble a real sword maneuver, but Accidentally-Correct Writing is a recorded phenomenon. It's not impossible that they did know and did it on purpose, but with no discussion of it on the show not any other demonstration of it - and really, the show seems disinterested in swordsmanship in general- I think there's good reason to be skeptical.

A while back, you said that you're fine with how the show deals with Rand, and talked about his role in future seasons. You took for granted that Rand would have a more significant role later on. Again, not impossible, but it's an idea I find myself doubting after the first two seasons. I think you also said that Rand's character arc in season 2 was about accepting that he's the Dragon, but I'm not sure that interpretation fits; at the start of the season, Rand's trying to learn channeling from Logain. He went off on his own, but that was because he thought he'd be a danger to his friends.

And I think I mentioned this before, but just to reiterate; I don't think the show is bad just because it deviates from the books. I think, even leaving the books aside, it doesn't work very well as a story. Heck, people I've talked to about the show IRL seem confused as to what the conflict of the show is even supposed to be.

There's more things I'd like to add later, but I'd also like to clarify that my comment about people disdaining the books wasn't directed at you or anybody else in this thread in particular. I was just trying to talk about my general impression.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 25th 2024 at 5:32:34 AM

Geez, from the way ye carry on, the final episode is going to be either the greatest thing ever put to Matroska or an insult to the concept of streaming.

Anyway, I watched episode 5. This was a Rand- and Perrin-heavy episode. I would have liked more Mat, but there are still three more episodes.

Masks come off this episode. Lanfear is being openly, gleefully evil, and it is glorious. Liandrin is also no longer pretending to serve the Light, and Nynaeve wins points by calling her out on being all "Wah wah I have a sad backstory" while being actively evil.

Liandrin also claims tbat the Three Oaths were introduced to appease Artur Hawkwing, which is quite the change from the books. In the books, the Aes Sedai introduced the Oaths of their own volition, at some point before the fall of Manetheren, in an effort to publicly ensure that they would act morally and thus their leadership and advice would be legitimate and trustworthy. Having Artur Hawkwing impose the Oaths can go two ways - either the Aes Sedai were arrogant and powerful and need to be brought to heel, or the people mistrusted them and they had to make some public show of contrition. It doesn't really affect the main story, but does significantly alter our perception of the events leading up to it.

I also love how Suroth acts all superior to Ishamael because he isn't of The Blood, even when she knows exactly who he is. Solid characterisation and worldbuilding, and shows how deeply embedded hierarchy is in Seanchan.

Aviendha's here! And she's as badass as an Aiel should be! I freaking love her breakout scene, plus it shows just how goodhearted and merciful Perrin is while also setting up Dain Bornhald as a relatively reasonable Whitecloak. If Galad hasn't been cast, I can see Dain taking on his role in the story.

I also liked the interaction between Liandrin and Suroth. OK, so I guess they are wearing the a'dam, but they don't look like slave collars. I don't mind the redesign of the collar itself, but they would definitely have more impact if the chains were physical, and the soothers still look ridiculous.

We get some fun interaction between Lanfear and Ishamael, in which Lanfear dismisses the other Forsaken as useless idiots. Those of us who have read the books know that's true, but should she really be saying it outright? Eh, those who haven't read the books will probably just assume she's arrogant. I also like her dominatrix gear at the very end.

The finale was my breaking point, but it wasn't the worst thing on a streaming platform. This show is still marginally better than Insatiable .

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 26th 2024 at 5:39:55 AM

Episode 6 lacks Perrin but has a non-zero amount of Mat. The writers have course-corrected and are now writing Mat properly, and the improvement isn't just down to Dónal Flynn's performance, but he is great.

The scenes in Falme stand out as great television. I particularly appreciate how Renna isn't written as a cackling villain who would twirl her moustache if she had one. She's professional, businesslike, matter-of-fact, and even presents herself as reasonable and personable. To me, that does a good job of selling the injustice of slavery, and shows how outwardly "nice" people can be monsters.

Not so fond of Lanfear's description of Liandrin as having been "starved, beaten, and married before she even bled". Seriously, they have got to stop trying to turn this into Game of Thrones.

Re: Mat: Unfortunately, no. I know how this season ends. They completely missed the point of Mat.

Renna makes a good villain. Just like she was in the books!

And yeah, this season in particular wants to be Game of Thrones more than it wants to be Wheel of Time; it cut out all of the adventure in favor of having people talk. Everything is dark and depressing and everybody is a terrible person. Liandrin is pretty clearly meant to be the show's answer to Cersei Lannister, which is hilarious considering Liandrin the book was an incompetent Big Bad Wannabe.

And the more I think about it, the more Moiraine's arc in this season feels like a filler arc. It's ultimately about going back to her status quo from before she went to the Blight.

Episode 7 is pretty bleh, with entirely too much Forsaken-trusting.

Things I liked:

•  Mat's drug trip and Lanfear's rampage through Cairhien City are well-done.
•  Lan showing genuine concern for Moiraine even after all they've recently been through
• Logain continues to steal the entire show in his one scene.

Mat gets his past life memories from doing drugs with Ishamael. It's like a Crack Fic, but without any of the fun.

And why shouldn't Rand trust Lanfear? He brings it the best in her!

I know, that is a weird choice. I guess Ishamael is trying to corrupt him, but still.

(Sorry for the delay in response—it's been a busy, complicated weekend for me, and this is a bit of a high-energy discussion.)

@MisterTambourineMan:

First of all, I appreciate the politeness of your approach there!

I had a feeling that you might think so!

But no: this is my read based on what was presented in the show. Based on things like expressions, body language, the flow of events, and so on.

It's what I infer there.

I'm not saying that I don't have an active imagination. I very much do!

But no, I think that we just interpret the scene differently.

Well, may I then suggest a counter-interpretation for ''your'' take on the scene? From what you've said, you really didn't like the show well before that scene. Given this, could it be that you were predisposed to read that scene in a way that reflects negatively on the show?

That's what his expression and reaction read like to me!

(Combined, of course, with various narrative elements from prior on the show, like establishing Rand's level of innate power, Ishamael's desire for an end, etc.)

I mean, it doesn't really resemble a real sword manoeuvre.

It is, as far as my admittedly-layman's eye discerns, exactly the same as a real sword manoeuvre.

Further, it's used in exactly the manner of that manoeuvre—to produce an accurate, powerful thrust.

I thus find it far more likely that it's an intentional use of that manoeuvre than not!

You see, here's a disconnect between us: I'm slightly boggled at the suggestion that the show would have to establish so mundane a thing as half-swording.

I mean, things like Parting the Bullrushes—setting-specific moves—sure.

But... standard Western martial arts...?

I'm not sure that I've ever seen a work that employed such martial arts feel that it had to explain them to the audience ahead of time...

Er, no, no I didn't.

Go back and look: I used terms like "my feeling is". I was speculating: it's my read on where they might be going. Not me taking anything for granted.

I get you feel so. But you don't seem to be getting that someone might feel differently—and not be wrong.

You seem to feel that the fact that you find it to be a poor story means that it is, universally, a poor story.

And yet, I don't think that we've seen such confusion in this thread.

I fear that you're taking a small reference pool for a representative sample.

No, I get that, and I appreciate it.

But consider: If the premise is that the show is "made for people who hate the books", and I like the show—that implies that I'm someone who hates the books?

I'm trying to demonstrate that the premise doesn't hold up: that someone who's fond of the books can still like the show.

I don't know, I found it to be a pretty good approach.

~

@VampireBuddha:

Oof, yes, that was wonderful.

Now, granted, I am a bit of a Lanfear fanboy—no, not like that! As a character! XD

But still, seeing her go all out, show some of the power and nuanced weaving of a Forsaken—and show somewhat of her true colours—was really excellent. Very much a highlight of the season for me, I feel. ^_^

Wait, I'm forgetting names: Was Renna Egwene's Sul'dam?

If so, then indeed, that part was excellently, horrifyingly, disturbingly well-done.

She really comes across as believing what she says, and seeing herself as a "good master". One who treats to her working-animal with care, and with the respect due an animal. But also one who has the strength—with heartache—to deliver stern and masterful control and discipline when called for.

It's just that the "working-animal" happens to be an actual human being... o_o;

I forget whether I've said this before, but having been exposed to the modern internet at large subsequent to reading the books, I like to read the name of the Seanchan as indicating a cute anime character.

"Oooh, look at how uwu you are, Sean-chan! >:3"

XP

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Apr 28th 2024 at 12:02:40 PM

Threads on TV tropes are small reference pools, as thread activity is usually driven by a small number of people emotionally invested in a work, for good or ill. There's definite self-selection going on here; all the posts in the last few months have been made by four people. I'd also like to point out that this thread isn't even very active by most accounts. The Fallout show's thread currently has about twice as many posts, despite airing years after Wo T.

I could also point out that one of the Wo T subreddits has had multiple threads for book readers to answer show watchers' questions about the setting, characters, and plot, which I think is indicative of a broader pattern.

I also decided to try looking back at one of the scenes featuring swordplay from Lan. At about 0:25 and 0:56, you can see Lan making thrusts while keeping both of his hands on the hilt.

Yeah, that's the one. (Don't feel bad, I had to scour the fan wiki to find her name).

I thought about this, and I disagree. Her being shielded does serve a narrative purpose. Breaking the seal is the first time Rand weaves intentionally, rather than just blasting with saidin. And in doing so, her performs a delicate task to heal another person. It's character development, done reasonably well.

I watched the season 2 finale this evening. In short, HOLY SHIT THAT WAS AMAZING! See that, season 1‽ THIS is how you do a season finale! Tambourine, I feel like you wanted me to validate your own dislike of the show. I see why you don't like it, but I still enjoy it quite a lot.

Loial says "What of the heroes of today? We are all the heroes of this new Age. Let us act like it". That is cornier than American bread, and Light help me I love it.

We get the culmination of Mat's character development over the first two seasons as he actually manages to not only resist temptation, but turns Ishamael and Fain's scheme back on them, because he's awesome. That's brilliant. And he still gets the humour in!

The highlight for me was Egwene turning the tables on Renna. That was powerful, brutal, and so well-deserved! And then she follows that up by going toe-to-toe with Ishamael himself!

Oh, and the Whitecloaks are here! In this episode, Geofram Bornhald reminds me of Stannis Baratheon at the end of A Song of Ice and Fire. The people of Falme appeal to every country for aid, but in the end, it's the Whitecloaks who arrive to push back the invaders. They may be fanatical Knights Templar, but they still actively try to do good. They're humans, rather than caricatures of Lawful Neutrality, and they give a genuinely good performance in the battle. And Eamon Valda has his rematch with Perrin!

And Hopper dies! NOOOOOO! I knew that was coming, but damn it hits hard, and now Dain Bornhald will never work with Perrin.

Uno's a Hero of the Horn! Screw it, why not‽

So OK, I really need to talk about Rand stabbing Ishamael. I don't think Ishy let Rand stab him; rather, Rand moved faster than he was expecting, and he had his hands full with Egwene. As for Rand putting his hand on the ricasso, yeah, the only reason that happens is that the prophecy says Rand needs to have two heron brands, but he didn't use his sword at the Eye of the World and I think the writers said they're skipping The Dragon Reborn. Half-swording is a real technique, but it's not the one that Rand should have gone for in a situation like this. First of all, half-swording only really works with a straight sword, and Rand's is curved. Furthermore, half-swording is a technique specifically for dealing with opponents in plate armour. The point of the hand on the ricasso is to guide the point to the armpits or groin, parts of the body which need to move freely and would thus only be protected by chainmail, which can be pierced with a stabby attack. However, Ishamael is completely unarmoured. If your opponent doesn't have rigid armour, you want to use the edge of your sword to inflict the maximum amount of damage. A sword slash in the right place can instantly disable an unarmoured opponent, and Rand's instincts really should have led him to attack Ishy's belly or upper arms. We know from last episode that he has some sword skills, as when Lan tried to take his sword, Rand immediately moved into a prepared stance, which Lan recognised and commended him for.

So all in all, yes, half-swording was the wrong thing to do here, and there is no good Watsonian explanation. But you know what? That's the sort of thing you'll only notice if you're the sort of person who reads about fighting styles from before the Late Modern period. Even knowing it's a bad technique, the whole scene looks freaking cool, and so I can forgive it.

Overall thoughts on this season: It's quite a bit better than season 1. It does face the problem of Moiraine, Mat, Perrin, Rand, and the Supergirls all having their own storylines that barely intersect, but they all come together in the end for an explosive finale in which everybody gets to play a role. Acting is generally good across the board; Josha is a bit stiff, but he can act when properly directed. It is a bit strange that the Great Hunt was taken out of the adaptation of The Great Hunt, and Mat is entirely too willing to take drugs from a man who kidnapped him and exudes cryptic shadiness, but all in all, the good outweighs the bad.

I guess Faile has simply been adapted out, which considering her reputation in the fandom will probably be viewed as an improvement.

This show passes the Bechdel test without having to try, simply by virtue of having lots of women in important roles who show agency. It also has lots of middle-aged women in prominent roles, which isn't something one tends to see on TV.

Looking ahead to season 3, I understand they're going to try adapting The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven. OK. Look. We all know how much the later books are padded, but quite a lot of stuff happens in The Shadow Rising. There's the Aes Sedia civil war, Perrin's defence of the Two Rivers, Mat in Finnland, Rand and Mat in Rhuidean, the whole exploration of Aiel culture, Couldain as the false Car'a'carn, Egwene and Aviendha studying with the Wise Ones, plus the political stuff in Tear, and we Egwene and Elayne still need to take the Accepted test. All that in one book, and they still want to cram in Rahvin controlling Morgase, Siuan, Leane, and Logain reaching the rebel Aes Sedai, Asmodean teaching Rand to channel, the defeat of the Shaido, and the Battle of Caemlyn? Lads, lasses, and enbies, ye don't need to do all that. Try combining The Fires of Heaven with Lord of Chaos instead. Those books have enough padding trim away.

Nah, I just wanted to be able to talk about it. You gave the first season a rave review, I wasn't expecting you to feel any different about the second.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 29th 2024 at 4:39:33 AM

And I think a lot of things in the finale in particular don't work.

• Egwene being able to touch the a'dam with the intent to use it against Renna, when her a'dam should prevent her from grabbing anything she intends to use as a weapon
• Egwene is apparently the only character who can match Ishamael in the one power.
• Nynaeve being superfluous, forming a plan to rescue Egwene and then never getting the chance to try it.
• Nynaeve shows up when Egwene is fighting Ishamael, but can't heal Rand due to her block. She's less restricted in the show, since she can also channel when she's scared, but somehow still can't make a token contribution in a scene where all of the non-Egwene characters are supposed to make a token contribution. Why is she even in Falme?
• The ruby-hilted dagger is now Mat's kewl magic weapon (that doesn't even look cool, because it's tied to a bedpost). This was the point I fully gave up on the show, but I'd been souring on it for a long time beforehand.
• Mat's character arc being resolved by blowing the Horn of Valere. Having a character's self-doubts be resolved by a bunch of ghosts show up and tell him he's a good person isn't a good character arc.
• Mat is the one to injure Rand, meaning that he just made everything worse for the heroes.
• Mat's arc was him worrying if he's a good person or not, when a big part of Mat's character in the book is that he's a good person even though he doesn't care if he is or not.
• Perrin looking for the Horn of Valere is ultimately pointless.
• The heroes recover the Horn of Valere because Lanfear gives it to them.
• The Heroes of the Horn only fight a few Seanchan mooks, but don't destroy the fleet.
• Moiraine singlehandedly destroys the Seanchan fleet, despite her Aes Sedai oaths preventeing her from using the one power as a weapon unless it's in self-defense.
• Rand's a nominal main character, but he's incapable of doing anything on his own.

The show's treatment of Rand and Mat is especially frustrating, as they're two of the best regarded main characters, and Mat's a personal favorite of mine. But the show throws out everything about Mat and writes what's functionally a different character that's neither as entertaining nor as interesting. Rand, meanwhile, has spent the first two seasons completely dependant on Moiraine, and I suspect they're going to keep him dependent on her in future seasons because Moiraine is the main character of the show.

The Three Body Problem show also made a lot of changes, but it did that to address the weaker aspects of those books - the characterization - while trying to maintain what was good about those books - the striking sci-fi concepts and broader conflict. This show chucks out most of what was enjoyable about the books for contrived drama and excessive focus on side characters.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 30th 2024 at 10:10:54 AM