Wheel of Time

I do think that they could do a bit more with Rand to make him more interesting. Like he is the main character but almost everyone else has more personality.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 22nd 2023 at 10:13:33 AM

Yup, I think that's not unfair.

When I think of characters that I liked, I think of Lanfear, and Ishamael (look, I like villains :P), and Nynaeve, and Egwene, and Moiraine, and Alanna, and Aviendha, and Elayne, and even Moghedien.

I... Don't really think of Rand, I'll admit.

Well, the events of season 2 appear to have knocked him out of the passivity that he showed during the season—at least for the duration of the season's end. Mayhap that'll take him to a more active role in season 3...

The next Season's supposed to be adapting The Shadow Rising, so I sure hope Rand is more active. He's still got a ways to go to prove himself as the Car'a'carn.

I'll confess, it took me a while to remember Shadow Rising (and I'm still not sure that I'm correct in which it is)—it's been a long time since I read the books! ^^;

But yeah, with Rand set to approach the title of "Car'a'carn", I can see him getting more focus, and becoming more pro-active, in the next season.

We'll see, one way or the other, I suppose! o_o

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I wonder whether we'll be seeing the Foxes and Snakes in this adaptation...

Now that we've had Lanfear, Min, Elayne, and Aviendha, the next thing that I'm particularly excited to see adapted is the twisted doors and those beyond them...

On the other hand, it looks like Mat's dealing with them might have been adapted out, if I'm inferring correctly from the scene in which he does drugs.

(Although I am also enthused to see Rhuidean!)

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Oct 23rd 2023 at 9:01:25 PM

Well, Mat got his Ashanderei from tying the cursed dagger to a bed post, and he got his extra memories from doing drugs with Ishamael, so he'll probably get the Foxhead Medallion as a friendship gift from Samael.

XD;

You've suggested that it was Rand who got the short end of the adaptational stick--I'm starting to think that it was really Mat! :P

If Rand's story is the show's writers grasping themes but not doing the best job presenting them, then Mat's is the writers missing the point altogether.

Mat is a parodoxical character; he appears to be one of the less mature characters yet takes to a position of authority most readily, he says he's no bloody hero yet is actually one of the most heroic characters, and so on.

In the show? They spend most of the first two seasons making it look like Mat's going to turn evil. He's an unabashed thief. He keeps the Shadar Logoth dagger, and is the one to stab Rand with it in a moment of absolute boneheadedness. The writers seem to think that's Mat's supposed to be some kind of anti-hero or Token Evil Teammate.

Hmm... I don't know: In the case of both Rand and Mat, I think that they're just going in a slightly different direction.

In the case of Rand, I don't think that they're having a problem presenting their themes—they're just going with a more reluctant Dragon Reborn.

In the case of Mat, they are indeed going with a shadier Mat, it would seem.

But even then, I would argue that the paradoxical Mat is still present here: This Mat is, as you say, a thief who consorts with the enemy and who (thus far) keeps the dagger from Shadar Logoth. But he's also a person who—under psychological duress—rejects both the enemy and the full alure of the dagger.

Indeed, the dagger is a good microcosm of this paradox: he takes up and uses evil, but refuses to let it master him.

As for being a hero... He is here the one who charges to Rand's aid with a host of undead heroes.

As to stabbing Rand, I really don't blame him for that. The illusion that tricked him into it was thoroughly convincing, and I see little reason for Mat to suspect it.

As an aside, I still am not used to some of the pronunciations that they've voiced, so used am I to my way of reading them. "Shadar Logoth" in particular I still only really read as "Sha-DAR LO-goth".

Let me put it this way: M At using the dagger in the show is like having Lord of the Rings adaptation where Gandalf uses the ring to kill Sauron. It throws out the idea that the thing was actually dangerous and consequently undermines the story.

And "Falme" is two syllables, people.

I disagree: We've already seen in season 1 the effect that the thing can have on him when he has it, and here in season 2 he takes great pains to not so much as touch the thing when taking it up.

That, to me, pretty well sells the thing as dangerous.

Turning to The Lord of the Rings, it's not like Frodo didn't use the Ring at times...

> Turning to The Lord of the Rings, it's not like Frodo didn't use the Ring at times...

correction,the ring used him!

It was a mutually-destructive relationship! :P

Keeping it with you, but at the end of a stick is saying that the knife is something Mat can use, he just needs minimal precautions. That's not really selling how dangerous the knife is supposed to be. Heck, you could even make the argument that it was ultimately a good thing that Mat took the dagger from Shadar Logoth.

And on a side note; What exactly is Padan Fain's deal in the show?

Regarding Mat and the knife (new band name :P), I don't agree at all: I think that the fact that Mat required such careful precautions sold the danger of the thing. Not to mention the events of the previous season, and the effects shown with its use this season.

But I've made my case now, so, if you feel that you've made your case, maybe we should leave it there.

I mean, I have no argument with good coming out of evil. And anyway, the whole Shadar Logoth thing ultimately had positive effects in the books, too, as I recall.

That's a good question—I've been wondering about that myself.

Thus far, he seems to be just a high-ranking Darkfriend—albeit one who was carrying the knife from Shadar Logoth.

However, they've teased his turn to evil-not-of-the-Dark-One via the fade that was pinned to a building.

Why is he still where he is, given that tease? Will he take a similar path to his book version? I don't know—it's all somewhat up in the air now, I fear!

We'll see, I suppose...

To be honest, I don't actually remember Padan Fain's ultimate point in the book series. He became kind of an eldrich abomination completely seperate from Dark One, but I don't remember anything he actually does. Part of me wondered if he was an abandoned plot thread.

I liked the theory that Rand was going to slay the Dark One and them imprison Padan Fain in the Dark One's prison.

Unaware that this was going to just restart the cycle.

I'll confess that I never did finish the series: I got quite a few books in, up to the point at which it all started to bog down. Then there was a long wait until the next book was released. By the point that the next book came out, I was curious as to how the story concluded—but not interested in reading the books.

So I don't know how Padan Fain's plotline concluded.

(I did get far enough to see the fate of Shadar Logoth, at least—presuming that nothing more happened with it after the cleansing of the One Power, of course.)

Yeah, if I want to re-adjudicate the same argument ad nauseam I'd go back to the Fire Emblem: Three Houses thread.

It feels like the show is making Padan Fain a major Darkfriend instead of the guy who was five minutes away from being Trolloc chow.

It definitely does feel that way.

Perhaps, in an adaptation that is somewhat streamlined, it allows the writers to get more use from him. Efficiency of character presence, sort of thing.

So, I tried reading an interview with Josha Stradowski, and...

This guy doesn't get either Rand's character or Lanfear.

Lanfear doesn't love Rand. She loves power. Her relationship with Rand is entirely her trying to mold Rand into a god-emperor who will give her even more power. Trying to control him is all she does with him.

I would rather see Rand get together with Alanna than have him get together with Lanfear.

So I finally got around to starting season 2, and ~Mister Tambourine Man was interested in my opinions. I know he's not a fan, but the Internet as a whole is rather more well-disposed, so we'll see how I like it.

Overall, season 2 gets off to a much stronger start than season 1, with some good action, nice character moments, and minimal expospeak.

The series really seems to be relegating Rand to occasional bit character much earlier than the books did.

Kate Fleetwood shines as Liandrin. She's strong, intense, and oh so sinister. Excellent.

Elyas is not at all like he in the books, and why can wolfbrothers apparently see the past?

I always read Mat as having a rural Galway accent, so I'm glad Dónal Flynn keeps his native accent here. Now if he can just play Mat as a right chancer it will be well.

It's good you like Liandrin, as you will be seeing her a lot. Though the show actually tries hard to downplay the "sinister" aspect of her character. The cynic in me thinks they were trying to make her into their own Circe Lannister.

As to why Perrin can see the future? I don't know, but my best Guess is so that he can take up parts of Min's role.

I think part of it is that Perrin's wolf powers are really hard to adapt without narration.

Perrin can like, smell people's auras and can speak to wolves through interpretive images and sensations. It's all very descriptive, and there's a lot that involves the senses that aren't just sight and sound.

That sounds more like the stock response to every change made for the show rather than a specific explanation here. "It's hard to show Perrin smelling emotions" does not automatically imply "Perrin should be able to see the future".

And also, I'd like to point out that the main character of Demon Slayer can determine peoples' emotions by smell, and they can get that across just fine.