Hate Sink cleanup

As you wish:

Ah, Nazis. It's quite easy to generalize them all as Hate Sink since well, they are Those Wacky Nazis that villains like Doctor Doom, Magneto and the Joker all despise. With that in mind, when determining the Hate Sink character among Nazis, it's usually the one with the least amount of sympathetic traits. Think Amon Goth from Schindler's List. That alone is hard if they are all completely awful but since Dark Arrow and others have been noted to have at least some good qualities (however small they may be), then go ahead; cut Oliver X and just keep Lance.

Thanks.

I should try and Get unsuspended from Editing, but improving my English has proven difficlt. So any chance some one else could do it in the mean time? It's fine if not.

Anyway. I had a suggestion for how a Hate Sink effortpost would work

'Who's the charachter? What do they do?' Summarize the charachter and there actions

'What makes them Personally Hateable?'

What Exaclty makes them PERSONALLY detestable? Are they an Abusive Dad? A Serial Rapist? Or Just an all around Jerkass? Also, how are they Particularly Hateable by the works standards?Simmular to the Heinous standard for Complete Monster. . Even in a case where no one is sympathetic there can be SOMETHING to help him stand out. If every villain is equally detestable then the writer probably didn't intend for this individual guy to stand out.

'Do they have any Evil Is Cool traits?'

A Hate Sink CAN have traits like these. As long as there not to the extent he is difficult to hate.(Adam Tauras from RWBY has a Badass design and is an EXTREMELY Badass fighter....and he's also A Psychopathic Manchild who helps Burn down his Ex girlfriends school and tries to have her family murdered)

'Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities? Complexity?'

Having redeeming qualities or a Freudian Excuse isn't an automatic cut like with Complete Monster but it still requires context. For example if The Freudian Excuse is used as an explanation Not justification. And as long as the redeeming qualities are Not used to make them out to be less Hateable to the Audience it's fine. Alot of morally gray Anti Heroes or Anti Villains have Hateable moments but still are not This. This is about the overall charachter.

Naturally like Complete Monster there CAN be Complex Hate Sink's. Ego from Guardians of the Galaxy 2 or Kilgrave come to mind. But It depends on context, like redeeming qualities above.

'

'Final Verdict?'

List the conclusion you got

EDIT:Does that work? Or no?

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 5th 2019 at 9:03:57 AM

Yeah, Lesser Scope Villain is a sucky name, hah. Maybe Lesser Scope Annoyance.

If we want to keep the trope as in, I think Word of God examples should only apply.

@Mega

That's very strict. I say we allow non Word of God ones to qualify as long as it isn't subjective how Hateable they are.

@Kylotrope Oliver X is removed.

Thankyou very much!

Think my Proposed EP format works?

It's been used for YMMV tropes like Magnificent Bastard or Complete Monster, but I don't recall it being used for an objective trope before.

I am not the right person to ask here. Maybe ask someone who has experience with these format rules.

I guess I'll try.

So, one suggestion I had in regards for this trope was actually Isaiah Johnson from the infamous 2011 short film The Strange Thing About the Johnsons written and directed by Ari Aster, director of Hereditary.

Isaiah is the only child of Sidney — a renown author — and Joan Johnson who at a young age, developed an unhealthy obsession with his father. Eventually this would culminate in him sexually abusing and raping his father for 14 years. He would also threaten Sidney with bodily harm if he as much as considered revealing the secret to the public.

Fourteen years later, Isaiah gets married to a young woman, but it should be clear that he doesn't show much affection for her, namely only marrying her to upkeep his image of normalcy. During a New Year's Eve party, Isaiah stays behind to "help clean up" when really that is a euphemism. When Sidney was in the bathroom taking a bath, Isaiah breaks the door down out of anger towards his father locking the door, and assaults him. Afterwards when Sidney tried to escape the house with another draft of his memoir Cocoon Man, Isaiah once again feigns remorse for what he had done the previous night to keep him under his control, and when that fails, he resorts to Victim-Blaming. Shortly after Sidney is killed by running into the direction of a moving van, Joan confronts her son on the abuse, leading to a brawl ending with Joan being forced to kill her son.

So, from this, Isaiah is written to be hated. He lacks any positive traits with him being possessive of his father due to his narcissism and being unwilling to admit that it was his own fault for driving his father off the wall. Aside from moments that could be seen as funny (such as him telling his father that it was time for "din dins"), Isaiah is nevertheless a realistic take on a Domestic Abuser who earns the hatred of the audience.

Edited by AustinDR on Mar 6th 2019 at 8:18:35 AM

to Isaiah.

Hey there Austin, nice of you to drop by. We've been needing new guys here.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 6th 2019 at 9:38:21 AM

@Shadao: Better idea - why not remove Hate Sink from Lance as well, and just place it in the general folder, since it very much applies to all of them, honestly. They all get equal measure this way, plus it eliminates redundancies.

Now that I look back at it, there's no character in the Third Reich of the Earth X page remotely qualifies as a Token Good Teammate and the tropes are not exactly flattering...

I should also note that Hate Sink is in the General Folder for Earth X, but since the whole page is also home to the Freedom Fighters, I shall add an entry for The New Reichsmen.

EDIT: And it is done. Hate Sink entry for The New Reichmen is added while Lance's Hate Sink entry is removed.

• Hate Sink: They are the undisputed tyrants of the New Reich and fanatical believers of the Nazi ideology down to every last racist, fascist fiber. None of them have any regrets for their actions, and the redeeming qualities they have are only reserved to themselves. Thus, nobody sheds a tear when their Good Counterparts put an end to their reign.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 6th 2019 at 10:20:04 AM

Personally I Disagree on that idea. While all of them are indeed monstouras they still have redeeming Qaulites Sans Lance(who murders his own daughter). So the intention is quite clearly for lance to come off as Particularly Loathable.

Any more votes on Austin's proposed charachter?

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 6th 2019 at 11:23:25 AM

What persuaded me to simply to put Hate Sink into the entire group is the realization that their redeeming qualities are self-serving (of course, why would they treat the "Aryan race" like crap?) and the fact that apparently, Overgirl killed her own adoptive sister and parents. Which kinda deflates Lance's only possible heinous factor.

In any case, I think Lance's murder of his daughter better fits Eviler than Thou than Hate Sink given that Dark Arrow can (and will) more than make up any morality "weakness" he displays with greater acts of evil than Lance could ever possibly do.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 6th 2019 at 11:35:21 AM

The reason X Kara killed her Step Sister Alex was becuase Alex tried to kill her first. And were never told if Alex attempted to do so for Noble reasons or not just that Alex tried first.

Lance murder of his Child daughter was because of her Sexuality.

I'd even argue against the idea that there Redeeming qualities are Self serving. As noted on the main page under Hypocrite(Wich in most other cases Ironically would HELP qualification then hurt it) Kara isn't part of the Aryan Race, Oliver just uses the fact she looks the part as an excuse to avoid persecuting her. And his motives, aside from Conquering and Subjecting Main Earth is to find a way to Save her life, so I'm really having a hard time believing that all of this is just an extension of there racial supremacy.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 6th 2019 at 11:49:06 AM

This is starting to sound like YMMV debate (and a potentially controversial one) and I am not a huge expert in the Arrowverse. Does anyone else have anything to add regarding these characters? Perhaps it would better if we had Word of God citation to weigh in on the intent...

As I've stated before, it's hard to pick a Hate Sink among a group of Nazis if they are all awful.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 7th 2019 at 12:07:33 PM

Well, the intentions in the writing is clear, the others are given Clear redeeming Qualities Wich lance not only lacks but is Given the whole thing about Murdeing his own Daughter On top of it.

I still don't think it should rely on Word of God, as we'd probably have to cut...80% of the examples really.

Perhaps for the time being we can simply put the whole thing about murdering his Daughter on Eviler Then Thou and pick this up at a later time.

Again, anymore votes on Austin's candidate?

Well, I see no reason why Isaiah Johnson wouldn't count, though I will say it is blurring the line between Hate Sink and Complete Monster. I do hope for proper guidelines regarding these two tropes.

Yeah Complete Monster dosent Equal Hate Sink. But if they Have the Personally Cruel crimes(Wich this guy 'Definetly' Does) I think he's a textbook overlap.

It's an overlap, yes, but Isaiah is written to be as hateable as possible.

To me, I feel that part of the criteria we could implement is whether the character is hateable in-universe. With Word of God, I lean towards it not being needed. Much like with CM, an author could try to make the character an awful person, but it end up backfiring. Frollo or Scar, for instance, were planned to be nothing more than monstrous. However instead, they were well-received by the audience. It's a reverse The Scrappy where in the latter's case, a character was meant to be liked by the audience but instead is reviled.

CM is about how the character causes fear, repulsion, and hatred within the context of the work and factors the heinous standard into account. With Hate Sink being more an audience response, Isaiah is depicted as repulsive.

Edited by AustinDR on Mar 7th 2019 at 6:08:16 AM

I'm down with it. :)

One question I have about this trope. Does a HS necessarily have to be a bad person? I have seen people put characters on the trope for being annoying such as Staci from Total Drama who isn't a bad person but is written to be as annoying and irritating to the audience as possible presumably to prevent her from becoming an Ensemble Dark Horse as she was the first contestant eliminated in her debut season.

Not always, but is generally understood that the character is villainous.

Well I got a charachter to propose. I was planning to do Cinder fall from RWBY but I figured two CM overlaps in a row(Austin's proposal) wasn't necessary.

'Whats the work?'

Steven Universe, a show about A boy with a gem in his stomach and his Magic lady guardians defending the earth...then we find out that the gems are the Remnants of an old Rebellion and Steven actually the half-breed son of the leader of a Rebellion Rose Quartz.

'Unmarked Spoilers bellow'

'Who's the candidate? What do they do?'

Eyeball, part of the Ruby squad Yellow Diamond sends to Earth looking For Jasper. Unfortunately the Rubies were...not Competant to say the least. And we're tricked by the Crystal Gems a few Differant times. The second time falling for Amethyst disguised as Jasper. Then after Figruing out the Latter fusing with Her fellow Rubies and attacked the Crystal Gems, to end the fight Steven Opens an Air lock sucking them out but Eyeball is able to grab Steven pulling her out with them.

Steven used his Magic bubble so he can still have Oxygen. Then Eyeball happned to come close enough to land on the Bubble(Wich Apparnely seems to have its own gravity) but is unable to Penetrate it. Thus the two floated around for awhile, with Eyeball reavaling she had actually been looking forward to Seeing the Devious Rose Quarts in person. Steven tries to say that he's(technically) rose herself. But Eyeball dosent belive him, Atleast until later when Steven saves Eyeball by bringing her into the Bubble and healing her gem. Something only Rose Quartz could do....then she tries to Carve it out of His stomach, as this would give her much Fame on Homeworld. Even After steven says killing him would pop the bubble she still tries, forcing steven to throw her out of it into the Vaccume of Space.

It's later revealed Homeworld Saved Eyeball and she Testifies against Steven during his "Trial". Pulling Never My Fault on him, Blaming him for having been thrown into space even though he tried to save her before.

'What makes her personally Hateable?'

Her Ungrateful Bastard attitude toward Steven trying to Carve out his gem for the sake of Fame, and the fact she Still pulls a Never My Fault during the Trial to get him Executed.

'Mitigating Factors?'

She and the other Rubies initially serve an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain role...Wich makes The Reveal of how Brutal she really is hit more.

And yes like other Gems in Pink diamonds Court she went through the war. And it's true She does have Hero Worship toward Jasper, but her motives For for trying to get Stevens Gem was largely simply being a Glory Seeker and not just revenge. And I don't think the thing with Jasper Distracts from her Hateability. And even then it seems to Largely just be because of how Ruthless Jasper was in the war.

'Final Verdict?'

I think she counts. Overall her charachter seems to be intended to teach a lesson, being kind and helping people isn't always going to mean the person will repay your kindness nor will they Change.

Well, she is reviled in-universe, and a majority of the RWBY fandom hate her guts (such as calling her a poorly written character), so....