Hate Sink cleanup

On the Big Bad /Hate Sink thing above. I think it's worth noting that, while your meant to root against the Big Bad, some examples commit acts of PERSONAL cruelty unlike a standard villain. For example a standard villain is a guy who wants to blow up a planet. A Hate Sink has Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil on top of that. I think a good example of what I mean is Spades king from deltarune. Wanting to wage war against the world of light Would not have made him this. His terrible treatment of his son and later when he Forces his son to watch His friends die does.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 30th 2019 at 12:47:56 PM

Wouldn't that push them into the territory of Complete Monster?

11, maybe. But so what?

They don't need to be quite that terrible. It's more important that they're very clearly not sympathetic.

@Another Duck Yeah I was just giving examples.

Look at this.

• Beetlejuice. The villain of the title is funny, creative, stylish, and highly susceptible to Draco in Leather Pants — and anyway, he's really just a "bio-exorcist" taking on a job. And we certainly can't hate the heroes of the story: Barbara and Adam Maitland and Lydia Deetz. Even Lydia's self-absorbed stepmother, Delia, is understandable to a certain extent and has undergone a Heel–Face Turn by the end. But we're certainly welcome to hate the snooty New York yuppies Delia wants so desperately to impress, and Betelgeuse gives them exactly what they deserve.

Not only did this entry spend more time describing the characters who are not Hate Sinks, but it didn't properly explain why the yuppies qualify for this trope.

Probably a proper example, but yeah, the writeup is misaimed.

• Horatio Hornblower: Midshipman Jack Simpson is a snivelling coward, a sadistic bully, an apathetic, lazy leader and an attempted murderer. Simpson is scum, pure and simple. However, true to the trope, viewers love to hate him. He's a compelling villain.

Doesn't Love to Hate go against this trope?

It does.

The thing is, the example describes the character as a Hate Sink pretty much perfectly. There's nothing about that that implies he's written to be liked. Everything points towards a character you're supposed to root against. That's what a Hate Sink is all about.

How the audience actually reacts isn't relevant for Hate Sink. Love to Hate is an Audience Reaction. Hate Sink is an objective trope. They're not mutually exclusive.

Love to Hate also claims to be a supertrope to a number of objective tropes, which is plain wrong.

I'm gonna request a cut. Earth X Oliver. From the Arrowverse crisis on earth X special

Hate Sink: An utterly detestable human being, he seeks to subjugate and kill anyone whom he deems even slightly different or weak. While it can be argued that his only redeeming quality is his genuine love for his wife, it was ultimately their shared hatred and fascism that brought them together in the first place. No tears were shed for him when Earth-1 Oliver guts him in the final battle.

He's a Monster no doubt. But A.It isn't his only redeeming quality, as he both loves his wife AND mourns the death of his friend Prometheus. And Thawne pisses him off if my memory serves right. And B. Hes in the same arc as Earth X Sturmmbanfuher Lance who is far more accurately described as...

Hate Sink: Even more so than everyone else on the Nazi side, except maybe Thawne. To put it simply, Dark Arrow, Overgirl, Prometheus and Siren all express care for somebody at some point. Lance, on the other hand, killed his own daughter and is proud of it.

Lance is specifically meant to be UNIQUE in his lack of redeeming qualities, and personal cruelty in comparison to his superiors. So I don't think X-Oliver should be here.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 6th 2019 at 9:44:41 AM

Recap.The Powerpuff Girls Twas The Fight Before Christmas:

• Hate Sink: Princess has done some really awful things in the past, but this episode, she really takes the cake. She outright switches the Nice-Naughty list, making it look like everyone in the world (especially the innocent people who earned their place on the Nice list) will be condemned to a Christmas of cold hard coal in their stockings, all so she can have what she wants for Christmas. Needless to say, when she and the Powerpuff girls are racing to the North Pole to reach Santa first, no one in the audience is cheering for Princess.

I question if one-shot portrayal of characters who aren't normally this count. Besides, how is this worse than standard villainy and lack any cool traits?

That is a good question. Hate Sink is always Depending on the Writer. Especially with Negative Continuity or a Long Runner. Thus, theoretically, a person who is not normally a Hate Sink can be a Hate Sink for one episode if this particular episode is a standalone story. But I think that's more of a Compressed Vice or Jerkass Ball if anything else.

For the record, as for Princess Morbucks in general, I would say she's a Hate Sink given that her regular competition is Mojo Jojo, Him, Fuzzy, Rowdyruff Boys, Sedusa, Gangreen Gang, and the Amoeba Boys; all of whom are either Laughably Evil, have redeeming factors, or invokes Evil Is Cool; aspects that she lacks. Her 2016 incarnation doesn't count based on what I read about Poorbucks.

Edited by Shadao on Feb 11th 2019 at 9:57:51 AM

Someone just added this.

• General Shanker in Escape from Planet Earth is an sadistic and corrupt military general who hates Aliens and kidnapped them (Due to his father died from a UFO crash by the greys in his childhood) and he also left Gary and Scorch to freeze with all the other aliens that shanker captured so he can blow up their home planet.

On HateSink.Ace Attorney, I think Manfred von Karma and the Big Bad of Spirit of Justice have too many Evil Is Cool traits to count. I'm on the fence regarding Dahlia Hawthorne.

to Karma if all that's true.

Any Thoguts on X Oliver?

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 26th 2019 at 10:34:22 AM

This was deleted under YMMV.Harry Potter And The Order Of The Phoenix because "That's just pure hate, as in Hate Sink, there's NOTHING to "love" about."

• Love to Hate: Few, if any, fictional characters are as supremely and utterly despicable as Dolores Umbridge.

This beings the question of how/can Hate Sink and Love To Hate overlap (I believe Hate Sink is the omission of Evil Is Cool, not Love To Hate). As is, the example fails to explain the "Love" part.

I've kind of thought of it this way. People can Love to Hate a Hate Sink BECAUSE there such a good, utterly detestable Hate Sink. As in there popular for that specific reason.

I think a good replacement would be

Love to Hate:Doloures Umbridge is one of the most infamously loathable charachters in all of Fiction, to the point of outright memetic levels. And she's become one of the most popular villains in the Series for that specific reason.

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 2nd 2019 at 2:09:58 AM

I agree with Kylo. HS and LTH aren't mutually exclusive. It is not exactly the same as the Evil Is Cool trope.

Bryce Walker from 13 Reasons Why is a good example. He is in no way a likable character being a disturbingly realistic serial rapist that hits close to home, but I have heard quite a few people who say they enjoy watching him mainly to see him get his comeuppance. The fact though that the show frequently shows off his manipulative side, along with the fact that he doesn't lose his composure too often I think helps. No one says he's "cool" or their favorite character just that he's good villain with some depth.

It also helps that other villains in the series such as Monty or Seth. Are portrayed as simply violent thugs who the show makes no attempt to portray as intelligent, manipulative or otherwise.

Welcome Username. Glad to have a new guy to the thread!

And again, Thoguts on X Oliver anyone?

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 2nd 2019 at 2:32:16 AM

Found this thread, thankfully.

I'm going to offer the suggesting of cutting the entire page. Enh, the way it's written now makes it YMMV for a lot, and you're going to run into a lot of Draco in Leather Pants problems (I love Cruella De Vil). And a lot of characters are villains that we're supposed to root against in any case.

That said, I do think there's a trope in there somewhere. From what I recall, it was mainly meant for villains/characters that serve an antagonistic role but aren't the main threat/main villain. Something like Billy Zane's character from Titanic (still a jerk but not an iceberg-level one), or P.J. Byrne's character from Black Lightning (Jefferson has a lot to worry about as Black Lightning and this guy isn't making it easy in his civilian life). They're the furthest thing from actual threats, but they compound the protagonist's situation/life just by making it a bit more difficult. Just to snowclone that idea, maybe just name that particular trope Lesser Scope Villain or something.

@Mega

No. Just no. This is for villains the writer wants the audience to hate. How the Audience reacts is YMMV another subject matter entirely.

And the Big Bad can still be this. Because not every Big Bad makes the cruelty PERSONAL. For example Bowser from super Mario dosent count as this cause his villainy is fairly standard. The spades king from Deltarune still counts though because he's a sadistic bully who tries to force his son to watch his friends die

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 4th 2019 at 3:16:32 AM

I just don't think "hateable person" is enough of a trope for it to warrant collecting tropes. What's the tool at use here? For the viewer/reader/consumer to channel their hatred into this one particular character for....what purpose? The main page lays out situations where we typically (not always) see them and those reasons are valid, but then a lot of the examples don't pay attention to this criteria. So do we prune those examples or just toss the page?

We can start by keeping examples that have author's intent. If Word of God intentionally made it clear that the character in question is deliberately, by design, made to be a punching bag for the audience to use and should not be gander any sympathy, then I think those ought to be kept. In other words, yes, prune the examples that don't count.

And for the record, Lesser Scope Villain is a terrible name for a trope. Many Hate Sink characters aren't really villains, but unpleasant characters that pales in comparison to actual threats and villains.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 4th 2019 at 6:12:10 AM

There's many many many cases where a charachter is meant to be Hateable. And frankly there so many that it's quiet trope worthy. If your not interested in the trope? Just ignore it.

Also, I don't think Word of God should be ESSENTIAL. Rather it's simply how his scenes are played wnd such. Unless of course it's a case where it's debatable if the writer intended it.

Also Mega, there's a number of reasons as to why a writer would make the charachter Hateable. To make his defeat more satisfying, to represent and display the horror of something in real life through them(Like the Slavers from the punisher) so on. Oh and Also? You ask if we should just prune examples or Get rid of the page.....No offense intended. But I think the existence of this thread should make it clear it's the former.

Now. Again, can I PLEASE hear some thoughts on X Oliver from earlier?

Edited by Kylotrope on Mar 4th 2019 at 6:23:49 AM