Hate Sink cleanup

Carrying on with the HateSink.Ace Attorney page. Spoilers for the Apollo Justice Trilogy.

Gaspen Payne (even if his SOJ self tried to have a child executed) is written as a Villain of the Week who is Laughably Evil and quite frankly if he counts, why doesn't Andistan'dhin?

Florent L'Belle is an Obviously Evil Villain of the Week and he's too ridiculous to count especially his Breakdown which is way too over the top for a Hate Sink.

Aristotle Means may be a Villain of the Week but he does trigger Athena's PTSD and unlike Fool Bright and Gaspen he's not played for laughs. His murder of Courte while it was petty and while I do feel he is a weak Villain, his breakdown is what really sells him as too silly though imo. He offers lighter sentences while getting booed and making an increasingly hilarious The Unsmile.

Puhray Zeh'lot: Might be the most evil villain that's not a complete monster. He tries to kill a pregnant woman that's regarded as horrible by everyone the Khura'inese judge and Nahyuta included, who ends up killing HIM in self defense. He's not humorous and unlike his boss Inga Karkhuul Khura'in, he has zero redeeming qualities.

Paul Atishon-Wimperson: Just the name alone should be a reason for him not to be here. He's a blatant parody of Shinzou Abe who in term had a lot in common with a few US Presidents namely Donald Trump. His theme song is also ridiculously goofy.

Inga Karkhuul Khura'in: He loves his daughter even though he has no reason to as she wasn't his actual daughter after all. Also his full name is a oxymoron that makes fun of itself. Burn in the Twilight Realm.

Ga'ran Sigatar Khura'in: Aside from Alba (We'll get to HIM later) and Dahlia I could see her as being the sole keeper Big Bad. She's toxic, abuses her daughter, acts as a Hanging Judge even if she isn't the Judge, rewrites the law etcetera. She might even be the most genuinely evil Ace Attorney villain thus far.

And that's the Apollo Trilogy.

Edited by Klavice on May 12th 2024 at 8:41:57 AM

Because Andistan'dhin starts out being portrayed as a hippie and shifts to being a rock musician, which adds a coolness factor that Gaspen simply does not have.

Regarding some points made:

I can see the arguments around Dahlia Hawthorne but what does Junko Enoshima have to do with if Dahlia Hawthorne fits this trope? They are both cases of the teens are monsters trope yes but it's not like they are written by the same person and Danganronpa is a different franchise so not the best thing to bring up when it comes to talking about Ace Attorney characters, not to say it can't work but comparing an Ace Attorney villain to an Ace Attorney villain actually works far better when trying to discern intent like for example let's say I contrast Winston Payne and Gaspen Payne in that while both are smug snakes the latter actually goes out of his way to badger the defendant and isn't legally clean like Winston Payne.

As for the first one, there's a difference between an over-the-top musician witness and a prosecutor who is written to be nothing but a smug jerkass in terms of personality.

Though speaking of Gaspen Payne I do have to question, why is his entry listed under Spirit Of Justice instead of his debut? He does become worse there sure but it's not like Dual Destinies wasn't doing everything to make him hateable what with his title and how he goes out of his way to badger the defendant for confession which prompts Athena to object and the judge to sustain her objection when Gaspen Payne's badgering drove her to tears and his response is just to boast about how good-mannered he is until Athena says she'd request her money back from the manners class when he brings it up, hell the writeup even includes information from Dual Destinies so at that point it would make more sense to list it under his debut entry.

My point was that can a Hate Sink be a Butt-Monkey? Because if so I'll cut the others noted besides Gaspen. Unless anyone else has any other objections? If you really think Dahlia Hawthorne is too evil is cool for this trope despite her defeat being as demeaning as possible, I'm fine with her being cut. Let's take to a vote anyway I think Dahlia should be kept.

Edited by Klavice on May 13th 2024 at 4:50:30 AM

Would Larry Grey from Downton Abbey count? According to the script book for Series 3, Julian Fellowes wrote him as a Deliberately Bad Example of the aristocracy to remind the audience that while he, Fellowes, tends to write a sympathetic portrayal of the upper class, the class does have its bad apples. And Larry is pretty bad; in his first appearance he drugs Tom out of sheer jealousy over marrying Sybil, making everyone in the party turn on him. He's shown to be classist, antisemitic, tries to starve his father Dickie to death in order to inherit the estate (Dickie just leaves him to inherit), and his idea of a good joke is to play horrible pranks (i.e. drugging Tom). Dickie admits in the series finale that he's tried and failed to like Larry.

Edited by k410ren on May 14th 2024 at 7:32:45 AM

I agree with most of your points but remember it's not just laughable traits that make a character entertaining, the theatrical aspects do as well like for Light, Voldemort, Frollo, Engarde, Kristoph etc. In that sense Dahlia definitely counts for all the reasons I mentioned above. I'd say Ga'ran probably counts too because of her over the top wrestler villain transformation and breakdown, and unique villain theme even if she isn't executed very well to a lot of the fanbase. Hell, Alba was probably intended to be like that too even if that really wasn't executed well at all to the audience.

I think simply having a unique character theme gives strong probable cause they were intended to be a cut above a usual hate sink character.

Edited by Shad0wSmoke on May 15th 2024 at 1:38:13 AM

On that note, does the Disney version of Governor Ratcliffe from Pocahontas count as this trope? Granted, he does some horrible things in the movie, but it seems they put a lot of work into his character for him to be a simple hate sink.

Do we take him off?

Edited by Norvaal on May 15th 2024 at 1:40:57 PM

Late to the topic, but I honestly don't buy the fact that a hilarious and over-the-top breakdown should disqualify someone from being a Hate Sink in the Ace Attorney games. Feels cheap that that a character seems to be a HS, only for that to be suddenly derailed because they react "funny" when defeated".

With that said, I'd be more inclined to keep Aristotle Means because, once his true colours are revealed, the guy is nothing more than a dickish brute who constantly belittles Athena and does nothing other than either be a bully or claim how awesome the Dark Age of the Law is. Sure, his breakdown is humorous, but that's a norm for the series and regardless of how over-the-top it is, it doesn't do anything to detract Aristotle's personality and motives.

Matt Enargde is a weird one because while he does have some comedic quirks at first, his true nature is taken really seriously and, in addition to being a Knight of Cerebus, the guy does nothing other than prove how much of a petty scum he is towards everyone. His breakdown also feels less funny and more cathartic on the players' side and I don't think it does anything to detract from his character, personality, or actions. The narrative also does nothing but emphasize that Engarde is the most despicable character in the case and it's played as seriously as it could be. Also, if we take the stage play into account, he's also guilty of sexually assaulting Celeste and Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil is something that can't easily be shaken off when discussing a HS.

Dahlia should be kept as a HS; the narrative takes her seriously all the time as well as hammers the point of how pathetic and slimy she is. Whenever she does try to be a chessmaster, it comes out less of that and simply emphasizes her pettiness and vindictiveness further. Unlike most characters, her breakdown is played dead seriously.

That said, a Hate Sink can be genuinely funny or have a few comedic traits, though, at the same time, I do feel that they need to be downplayed or suppressed if their HS nature needs to be more clear.

Edited by CrimsonShark on May 16th 2024 at 1:18:10 PM

The point of Hate Sink is that they're not meant to have any redeeming qualities and the writers are meant for them to be completely loathed, as a slimeball that the audience wants to be quickly defeated and the quicker they're removed from the screen the better. It's not just that they're extremely terrible people with humanity's worst qualities. If they have upfront qualities that makes them entertaining to the audience that makes them enjoyable onscreen that's not a Hate Sink. That's why a bunch of Complete Monsters aren't Hate Sinks. Aristotle Means gets MORE entertaining once he reveals his true colors. He does a wrestler heel transformation where he turns into an ancient Spartan statue, starts role playing as a teacher in court, and gets cool animations like twirling his globe on his finger while smiling evilly. And of course his iconic breakdown.

Engarde has one of the most hype and amazing reveals in the series. He has a Von Karma level charisma and intimidation throughout the entire Detention Center conversation afterwards. Same with Dahlia who has a powerful theatrical presence anytime she's onscreen. I'm going to be honest I have to wonder if there's some dissonance between how female villains are viewed and how male villains are viewed here. All the arguments against her like being extremely petty and being humiliated as a pathetic failure at the end are shared by the male villains and she wouldn't be as popular, or rather iconic, as she is if her own charismatic and charming traits weren't meant to be that to the audience either. It seems like some arguments are just personally not considering her as "cool" as the male villains.

I still think Engarde qualifies, even if his reveal is well-built-up and executed. Regardless of how entertaining he is, it doesn't change how he's framed by the narrative and unlike Manfred, Kristoph, or the Phantom, he doesn't have anything that says Evil Is Cool and his "charisma" only emphasizes his sliminess and his smugness is oozed out for what is worth (Manfred at least keeps his charisma composed and remains intimidating, with his pettiness only being emphasized as the court case on Gregory is further played out).

Also, I think a Hate Sink can be an entertaining and well-liked character, but then that latches onto Love to Hate territory and I'm not too sure whether the waters here are going to get murkier.

Anyway, this is starting to remind me of Clarance Boddicker from RoboCop (1987). Here is his HS entry...

• Hate Sink: While every member qualifies, Boddicker especially stands out. He has the main protagonist brutally killed via a long and drawn-out firing squad, treats his own gang as expendable, is a hitman for a Corrupt Corporate Executive, has an extensive record of killing police officers, and takes joy in his heinous acts. His death, while not the most painfully slow (that would be Emil) or quick and overkill (that would be Leon), is all the more fitting.

Yeah, this one is just Complete Monster lite. Even with that aside, there's also a paragraph on Laughably Evil, so I'm assuming he's got a lot of entertainment value.

I have some entries from other works I do want to talk about at a later point.

Yeah, I mentioned it earlier that I think there seems to be a bit of an interpretation change within the last year. I think most people generally used it as a character written to be primarily a horrible individual and it was often used as a Complete Monster-lite that was able to be put in character entries and also used for characters that got off on being a Complete Monster because they genuinely cared for someone. Now it seems it's understood to refer to characters that were written to be genuinely hated without any villainous flair that makes them enjoyable and likable as a villain and you want the heroes or anyone to permanently get rid of them. Basically the Jerks Are Worse than Villains audience reaction as a writing trope.

Engarde is smooth and interesting enough during his reveal that he shouldn't count. He brings out a wine glass openly touting his card carrying villain status. He is able to not only genuinely fool Phoenix but likely most of the audience. He's the final boss of the game. These are all strong indicators that the writers intended him to be an enjoyable memorable character that referencing him in future media or promotional work would have the audience cheer instead of groan which they succeeded in.

I'm not familiar with Boddicker but if he is clearly meant to be an entertaining character to watch onscreen he probably wouldn't count.

Is Snape really a Hate Sink? Yes he can be quite a big jerk but I don’t feel like he’s meant to be a hateable character with how he has a tragic backstory as an abused child and bullied kid and how we finally find out he’s a good guy all along. Plus no matter how much of a jerk he is, when the students are in danger he always risks his life to protect them, even if he doesn’t like them. He is definitely a Jerkass but isn’t he also too much of a good guy to really be a Hate Sink? Also his tragic backstory isn’t deemphasized to play up his awful traits. It’s actually quite a big part of why he became who he is. And Harry at the end no longer has any hatred for Snape whatsoever. In Cursed Child he even claims Snape was like Dumbledore, a great man with huge flaws. I think Snape is too complex and sympathetic to be a hate sink, plus there’s the revelation that he was a good guy all along. So a huge Jerkass? He definitely was a lot of the time. But a Hate Sink? I don’t think he is.

Cut Snape... he literally dies helping Harry.

Snape is a very difficult character here. JK was surprised people liked him but she also gave him a tragic backstory and sympathetic moments.

• He's a Sadist Teacher, but I wouldn't call him an antagonist, without even considering later developments.
• I don't remember buck of Book 3 so someone will have to confirm. Reads more like a Took a Level in Jerkass entry instead.
• literally irrelevant

iirc Rowling does call him a hero in an interview. Did she ever say she meant Voldemort to be an interesting villain? I'm genuinely curious.

Also this reminds me of Spamton who's now probably the most popular character in the game who Toby Fox claimed he was surprised people liked him too.

I think that means that qualities like "having a comically humiliating breakdown" or "being a Karmic Butt-Monkey" wouldn't be disqualifying factors, though. That's just giving the audience the intended cathartic payoff of stopping the insufferable nuisance from squirming out of consequences again.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on May 18th 2024 at 1:36:11 PM

I think the main difference there is whether the character is the one that's being funny/entertaining or if it's just the consequences itself. So characters like Means, Paul-Atishon, and Shamspeare are amusing to watch even when they're being smug and slimy snakes. Honestly I'd say an AA culprit that would potentially fit Hate Sink would be Richard Wellington. His character isn't anything special. He's just written as annoying, slimy, and insufferable. I don't think his character (which he barely has any) is meant to be actually enjoyed. The only thing being enjoyed is him self-injuring himself everytime he's contradicted which could happen with any culprit. He doesn't really have any redeeming entertaining values as a character. I guess his near-sightedness being used as a joke by Phoenix is funny but is that really due to Richard himself rather than Phoenix making that joke or the coincidental circumstances?

Edited by Shad0wSmoke on May 18th 2024 at 8:40:53 AM

I have played the case recently and don't recall that being played as a joke and instead it's more the reason he took too long to do something as simple as call the cops and the reason he failed to find his glasses was because they were under the body.

The "Richard Wellington loves large bananas" prompt.

Oh yeah, that's more of an optional dialogue prompt which is available for a lot of situations, like suggesting Roger Retinz is a Trucy fan or something.

So there IS a cleanup thread for this trope. Good to know. I always kinda though there was an overabundance of this trope (heck, even I may have used it a little too liberally).

I need to get out the elephant for this character in this trope last time I checked.

Rand Ridley from Inside Job.

• Rand Ridley is Reagan's abusive father. All of Reagan's emotional and psychological problems can be traced directly back to him (for example, Reagan's inability to hug is a result of him never hugging her and getting a robot to do it instead). In the current day, Rand treats Reagan as a tool to make his own life better, both figuratively and literally as the season 1 finale would reveal that he erased her memories of her Only Friend growing up to ensure nothing would get in the way of him raising her to be his ticket back into Cognito if he was ever ousted. Downplayed in throughout season 2, while he's still remained a horrible jerk, he isn't giving any real trouble to Reagan. Averted by the end of season 2, when he ultimately comes to realize how much he loves Reagan and sincerely apologizes to her for the pain he caused her, though he more or less remains petty when he goes to Shadow Prison X.

Going to be real as I don't believe or even was intended to be hated as the show progressed especially what the writer are suppose to do with his character. Even excluding that and his intentions/sympathetic moment in the final he is way too funny even after the reveal. The best I could think was the poop on his desk joke in one of the episodes and many in part 2. I think it's clear to me that despite being an asshole he wasn't really made to be hated by the audience.

I know it says the downplayed explanation halfway but still something to bring up.

Edited by Echidna on May 23rd 2024 at 3:09:11 PM

Can Reality Show people be Hate Sinks if they’re awful by the edit? Or is this a this trope might drive too much into a contestants personal life. Like one example I can name off the top of my head is Dan Spilo from Survivor Island of the Idols, who sexually groped and harassed several female contestants. The reason he was kicked off though was due to an intern getting harassed? So is he a keep or not, given the intern wasn’t part of the show, at least not the fictitious part?

Yeah, Dan was just an objectively creepy dude. The editing didn't "make him" a Hate Sink, his real life actions made him hateable.