Almost every usage I've ever seen of this trope is just "this story has a moral I agree with", which seems like misuse and not a particularly interesting YMMV item. I'm a bit confused about what the trope is, but one interpretation I could get behind is "Author Tract/work entirely focused on delivering a single aesop, but good". This is following the Uncle Tom's Cabin explanation in the description. If not, I don't know what this trope actually is, but I do think Anvilicious should be a prerequisite.
If so, that would disqualify all of the Dragon Ball examples, as that work isn't sufficiently message driven.
Edited by naturalironist on Dec 16th 2018 at 7:33:00 AM
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
I think this comes from a broader problem with Anvilicious, where it’s essentially used as "this work has any message or takes a side on any issue". So because we kind of frame a work simply taking a moral stance as inherently bad, people overuse Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped as a way to exempt works they like.
Edited by TheMountainKing on Dec 17th 2018 at 3:55:21 PM
The trope description sounds like it's talking about two different things. One is the anvil needs to be dropped in the real world (the part about Uncle Tom's Cabin), and the other is about how the anvil-dropping improves the work itself. Is this trope meant to cover both situations?
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"The anvil needs to be dropped in the real world" could potentially lead to people using the trope to push potentially controversial personal views. I've seen at least one case of politics being potholed to Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped to make it seem like TV Tropes supports said view, and there's surely many more cases like that that haven't been cleaned up.
SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic consists entirely of "this episode teaches lesson X" without explaining why this makes the episode better.
I think this trope could use a rename, since "Some Anvils Need to be Dropped" implies that the definition is "the world would be better if more people followed this work's message".
Edited by Someoneman on Dec 21st 2018 at 3:08:04 PM
I'm in favor of just cutting it entirely or TRS-ing it into something usable. Right now, it's just "Anvilicious but in a good way," and that depends entirely on the viewpoint of the editor/reader.
Edited by RallyBot2 on Dec 21st 2018 at 8:18:10 AM
This example was just added to YMMV.Mary Poppins Returns and highlights the problems with the trope as-is.
"* Values Resonance: Combined with Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped. Wilkins' actions in the movie, from destroying records to engaging in purposeful foreclosures, are both perfectly in line with banks in both the time period and the present day."
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Given that the vast majority of examples are just "this work teaches us X", there is definitely something wrong with the trope, so I'd also be in favor of a a TRS thread.
There was once a TRS thread for Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped, but it was closed due to no one being able to come to an agreement on what to do with it. I think we should try starting another TRS thread for this since there's a problem with the page itself rather than just the examples.
Do you think we'll be able to come to an agreement this time? What do you think should be done?
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I remember I suggested in the TRS thread that we move Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped in its current form to Sugar Wiki.
Edited by ADrago on Jan 3rd 2019 at 4:16:35 AM
From SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic:
I think this does not apply because it somewhat subtle. The trope Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped needs to be unsubtle as any word here on TvTropes which is in all caps, in bold, and italicized, AKA unsubtle.
...
Can something be posted under both Anvilicious and Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped? They're both YMMV after all.
I suppose that will be a question for the TRS once someone makes it.
Going by SANTBD I think Anvilicious is almost a requirement for the former.
I don't think that a move to Sugar Wiki will solve the issues with Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped.
The main issue I see is that it's essentially "Anvilicious but in a good way", which makes Anvilicious into a "bad trope" by extension. This encourages misuse of SANTBD in order to "defend" works from accusations of being Anvilicious. If we move it to Sugar Wiki, it will just make Anvilicious even "worse".
That goes back to what I think is the main problem, that Anvilicious has led to an attitude that a work taking any moral stance on anything is bad.
I don't know if this is too extreme, but I think getting rid of Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped and making it into a redirect to Anvilicious might be a good solution. Tropes Are Tools, so "Anvilicious, but in a good way" is redundant to just plain Anvilicious.
Edited by Someoneman on Jan 14th 2019 at 9:13:11 AM
I'd like some more opinions before opening up a TRS thread. I'd also like some suggestions for the TRS reason. I'm torn between Needs Help, Misused, Duplicate Trope, or Not Tropeworthy.
Also, here's my attempt at a write-up. I think it covers all the issues raised in this thread.
Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped's description states that it is when "a story is improved because its message is so blatant". In other words, it's "Anvilicious, but in a good way", which is redundant since Tropes Are Tools.
On the flip-side, if Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped is "Anvilicious but good", Anvilicious becomes an inherently negative trope (since if it was good, it'd be listed as SANTBD instead). This encourages tropers to add their favorite works as examples whether they fit or not, to "defend" them from accusations of being Anvilicious. This can be seen in how most examples just read "Work X teaches us Lesson Y" with little context as to how this improves the story.
Then, there's the second paragraph of the description, which says that "Other times, the anvil comes across very blatant, which might turn off some viewers, but in the era which the story is told, the message itself is more important than the story or allegory it is presented in". I read that as "the world would be a better place if more people listened to this work's message in the real world", which opens up the possibility of agenda-based editing by adding political or otherwise controversial works as examples. This isn't as common as I feared it would be, but it has happened at least once in the past.
Because of these issues, I'm in favor of cutting Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped entirely and making it a redirect to Anvilicious.
It would be Duplicate Trope, and your write-up looks good.
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Not sure what to do with this thread.
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SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic:
- "The Ending of the End": There are bad people out there who cannot be redeemed. No matter how hard you try, there are some people who simply will never accept your help, and you need to realize that they're beyond turning good. They can't be ignored or reasoned with, or bad things will happen. Sometimes, they just have to be dealt with.
- What's more, just because bad people exist doesn't mean there aren't good people in the world who will take a stand for what's right.
But from Said Episode:
- An Aesop: All good deeds have a legacy. Even if bad things happen in the meantime, good things leave a lasting impact that isn't so easily erased.
Can it count as Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped if it's not the anvil the work is dropping? And if not, how is Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped supposed to be different from reiterating An Aesop with gushing?
I think this trope should be reworked so it's doesn't reiterate the Aesop, but explains why the intended Aesop was stand out well-received.
I have noticed a lot of misuse of Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped, which according to the page has the key factor of "this is not whether or not you agree with the moral, it's about how a story is improved because the message is so blatant. A genuinely anvilicious Aesop is not automatically excused by being an agreeable one."
Stuff with its own page, like SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped.Dragon Ball, have entries that go into Space Whale Aesop territory ("Goku was disregarded at birth and was set to destroy Earth until he hit his head and got amnesia, showing that you can be more than what society or the system expects from you"), and I've seen a lot of misuse on YMMV pages, especially ones that don't have a corresponding Anvilicious entry to tie into SANTBD.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Dec 16th 2018 at 12:50:52 PM
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