Space Jam 2

I think that's the long and short of it, yes.

Optimism is a duty.

Could you explain how? I am not trying to be rude. Just understand what I am missing. Like I said earlier, my not getting it could just be due to finding the movie and character boring.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 14th 2023 at 4:30:28 AM

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I'm not sure what you're asking.

Optimism is a duty.

"Is Lola in this movie even supposed to be feminist?"

Well, she's supposed to be, yes. The marketing made that perfectly clear. This was their idea of making Lola more feminist.

The issue is more that they didn't do a very good job with it, making shallow and wrongheaded choices that speak to a rather outdated mode of feminism: a lack of femininity (smaller breasts), a rejection of males (no boyfriend allowed), and taking on masculine traits (become a warrior).

Honestly, the first movie did a better job making Lola a feminist character than this one. At least that one didn't lean on masculinity to prove her worth as a woman, and she was very independent, albeit in a sexually aggressive way, especially with Bugs.

Optimism is a duty.

Also, is there is no point where she says she doesn't want a love interest?

Edited by Bullman on Dec 14th 2023 at 6:25:51 AM

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The best Lola still seems to me to be the ones from 2010's.

The original Lola suffered from being a Flawless Token.

Edited by Luisdalas on Dec 14th 2023 at 4:42:40 AM

I loved Lola from The Looney Tunes Show best personally.

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And the decision to sink the ship with Bugs was perhaps provoked by "feminism", or perhaps not. But still I can't help that it was the first.

Edited by Luisdalas on Dec 14th 2023 at 4:44:09 AM

thats the weirdest thing I've seen someone blame on feminism

New theme music also a box

It should be noted that I put feminism in quotes.

also Lola was NOT a Flawless Token

New theme music also a box

So before, you just knew that it was feminism, and that it was because feminists think that loving a man makes a female character...anti-feminist, somehow.

But now you're admitting that you actually have no way of knowing why a given decision was made.

It's ok to not like the direction they took with Lola in this movie. It's a bit weird to blame it on a bunch of writers (none of whom you've bothered to name and I doubt you actually know much about who wrote this movie) that you're just sure belong to some vague ideology that isn't limited to them but also extends to other, equally unnamed and non-specific "feminist" writers.

I personally didn't mind this movie. I don't really think it's great though.

There is a certain brand of feminism that would indeed cheer on the idea of a woman ditching her boyfriend and going solo the rest of her life, and is generally misandrist towards men, sometimes to the point of violence. They used to be a lot more prevalent in the 50s and 60s.

We don't really consider that feminist any more, no, but they called themselves feminists, so there's that.

Optimism is a duty.

Nothing wrong with Zendaya's performance certainly, just maybe the writing of Lola here being misguided though I'll admit.

Again is there a scene where she says she doesn't want a love interest? No in the film has one and the story doesn't really have time for romance. So, unless I am missing something it seems weird to blame that on feminism. Also where was she rude to any man? She is nice to everyone from my memory.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 15th 2023 at 10:14:19 AM

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That's a wild takeaway to call this "masculine" considering her choice of WarnerMedia to do this is Wonder Woman - one of the most notable examples of Feminist Fantasy. The whole point of her sequence in Space Jam 2 was for her to push aside her own goals to help others in times of need, which earned Diana's respect more than just completing the obstacle course (which Lola didn't do). That arguably speaks more to Diana's diplomatic philosophy (under good writers) that's less about being "bull-rushing lone wolf" that's sometimes seen as "masculine".

If Lola plopped herself in any other WB property that was a male-dominated, meathead world as a lead, where women were seldomly side characters at best, you might have had a point. Otherwise, you might as well say she already had "masculine traits" by being initially the lone female basketball player in a predominantly male team in a physical sport.

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Both Space Jam Lolas, to me, are arguably inoffensive, but blandly written characters. A New Legacy gets a few deductions because it's been years since the original, but she's played shockingly safe despite some nuggets to draw from (the aforementioned "don't let your competitive nature screw others" moment, for example).

I still think New Looney Tunes, which predates A New Legacy with a similar shape build, had an interesting Composite Character basis of taking her sports passion and making her do wacky sabotages against other players who didn't play fair. ANW's Lola only got to participate in one genuine gag with the rap sequence.

Also, Lola (and her descendent) has more instances of being platonic with Bugs in other media, then the comparable "Minnie Mouse" analogy of being Bugs' would-be girlfriend. The Looney Tunes Show is the only major example, and that's a substantial plot point compared to the lipservice "Gets The Girl" end result from the first Space Jam.

The starting point of this thread revival honestly just reeks of an excuse to blame "feminism" for "ruining a female character" who was underdeveloped to begin with.

It's either this or complaining about Pepe le Pew.

Edited by XMenMutant22 on Dec 15th 2023 at 1:28:41 PM

Yeah, it's a wild leap from "this character is poorly written" to "the writers are feminists who think women cant love men".

Especially when I think 5 of the 6 writers are men.

Also, if you think "smaller breasts" is a lack of femininity, that's...intensely fucked up.

Edited by ArthurEld on Dec 15th 2023 at 9:43:20 AM

Yeah. As strange as it was that Lola in the original got weirdly sexualized what with the "Bunny Boobies" and all, this movie did at least make an effort to try to advance her past all that certainly.

Also, as odd as the Matrix reference was, let's not forget that WB had Resurrections coming out later that year too and needed to try to get interest in it reignited (haha). Also also, even if one wasn't horribly offended by the infamous Notorious P.I.G. scene (and I'm someone who wasn't offended), most can pretty much still agree though that it was really not necessary.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 15th 2023 at 10:48:57 AM

Yeah. Like I said before, you can criticize the laziness of the writers all you want and trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator and countless other writing shortfalls but the absolute certainty that feminism is to blame for Lola's writing problems is frankly bizarre.

I also find the take "they didn't flesh her out enough to give her a Catchphrase!" weird in its own right. Like... a Catchphrase is what you usually give a character in lieu of depth.

You're not wrong, but this is, without exaggeration, the first time I've ever heard anyone consider the lack of a catch phrase to denote a lack of character depth. Catch phrases are inherently shallow characterization and while they don't necessarily inhibit characterization, they don't encourage it by any stretch.

Edited by Larkmarn on Dec 15th 2023 at 4:02:58 AM

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Good point, maybe that was a bad read. Also, I am not blaming anyone, I was just looking for an explanation.

I don't think that tracks, there are plenty of characters with catchphrases and deep personalities.

Optimism is a duty.

Not sure if I can say Lola was the least of the problems people had with the movie. Could just be another thing people who got mad at the movie latched onto though.

It's not a matter of depth, dunno why you get that from my post. It's a matter of effort.

IMHO, absolutely none went into Lola's writing, they just did the bare minimum.

They didn't add to what Lola was in the first Space Jam, didn't borrow from her other incantations, they just gave her a breast reduction replaced her voice actress with the a more famous one and called it a day.

The catchphrase thing is just to point out the discrepancy between her and the other characters.

And yes, the other characters existed for longer, but it's not like Space Jam is the only thing Lola has, there were three other series that featured betwen movies that made an effort, also comics and small game appearances.

She even had a catchphrase in the movie featured that works with her character, but they sure seem determined to not touch it, so instead she gets a random quote speaking to Lebron.

The writers just didn't care.

Edited by MrSeyker on Dec 15th 2023 at 4:14:02 AM

I wouldn't say bare minimum. The empowerment aspects did feel like they were doing empowerment aspects and they weren't really that crucial to the story ultimately.