Duplicate tropes discussion thread

This would make the definition of Viral Transformation on Face–Monster Turn incorrect, right?

*checking*... Yeah. It needs to be changed, quickly.

On a loosely related note, I don't think Brainwashed and its related tropes fall into Face–Monster Turn as it doesn't (usually) involve any physical transformation, something that FMT's description implies...

Not so much about duplicate tropes, but ensuring that they're defined correctly and not mistaken for duplicates.

I added this line to Alternate Continuity:

This is different from an Alternate Universe in that outside of crossovers and What If? scenarios, they generally don't interact with the "main" universe. However, in some circumstances an Alternate Continuity can become an Alternate Universe if the characters crossover.

I'm guessing that Alternate Universe is an in-work concept, while Alternate Continuity is a meta concept. Alternate Universes are meant to be connected with each other from the start; works that are explicitly established as having multiple universes. By contrast, Alternate Continuity is purposefully "separate" from the main story in a Doylist / Out-of-Universe way.

To demonstrate, the way the whole Marvel franchise's verses are handled with both tropes: some stories have inter-universe travels and/or having characters from multiple distinct universes into one, while some other stories are completely isolated.

Edited by 4tell0life4 on Oct 29th 2018 at 11:24:02 AM

Reading Red Herring Twist, I'm not sure if it's any different from Fauxshadow.

What's the difference between Ambiguous Allegiance and Wild Card? Is it that for Ambiguous Allegiance they do have a specific allegiance, it's just not revealed until late in the story? Ambiguous Allegiance is also written like an Audience Reaction, which I was trying to re-write for the Trope Description Improvement Drive when I found Wild Card.

And how does Wild Card differ from Heel–Face Revolving Door?

Edited by naturalironist on Nov 7th 2018 at 3:09:34 PM

Wild Card is "he stands on his own side". He may nominally side with one side of the conflict, but he's fickle about it; he just goes by his own whim, and if said whim tells him to side with some faction, he would, purely (or mostly) because of his whim.

Ambiguous Allegiance is related to The Mole, Reverse Mole, Double Agent and other related tropes in that they do have an allegiance, but the story makes it ambiguous as to which side. It's when you ask the question, "are they truly loyal to one side, or both, or neither?" (the last one would be Wild Card.)

YMMV.Time Crisis

• Ass Pull: Robert being the Big Bad behind the events of Time Crisis 5.

Besides being ZCE, it's redundant with Shocking Swerve which already lists this. Seeing Ass Pull cleanups left me to believe Shocking Swerve is out of blue plot twist, but Ass Pull is about out of blue solutions to the plot.

If not, what is the difference between the tropes? If there isn't any clear distinction one is just complaining. I brought this to ATT awhile back?

Ass Pull has been frequently used to describe "any plot development that has no previous foreshadowing" in YMMV pages. I'd like to think that that's not the intended definition of the term, but the laconic page says otherwise.

On a different note, could anyone give me a clear distinction between All Girls Want Bad Boys and Troubled, but Cute?

The only diffence between Ass Pull and Shocking Swerve I can see from the Larconic is the latter "but impossible given the facts observed "not only impractical, but impossible given the facts observed."

I have seen no use of either that makes the distinction. Should I make a TRS on this? Would it be better served for Ass Pull and Shocking Swerve?

The way I've understood them, which isn't necessarily drawn from the descriptions, is that an Ass Pull is something that's just made up on the spot, despite that it doesn't fit the previous narrative. A Shocking Swerve is specifically a Plot Twist that comes out of nowhere, and serves little other purpose other than being a plot twist. Shocking Swerve is the way I interpret them a subtrope to Ass Pull (which doesn't need to be about plot twists, but can be about powers or items suddenly appearing).

Edited by AnotherDuck on Nov 8th 2018 at 10:27:18 AM

I've seen Ass Pull mostly used to describe when something comes out of nowhere and is used to resolve a plot line or get characters out of a tight spot.

You mean a Deus ex Machina?

• Ass Pull: Having seemingly written themselves into a corner, the creator introduces a plot device or twist with no foreshadowing.
• Shocking Swerve: A plot twist introduced for the sake of a plot twist.
• Deus ex Machina: A plot device introduced without foreshadowing to resolve the major story arc.

Looked at in this context, both Shocking Swerve and Deus ex Machina would be subtropes of Ass Pull. Not every Ass Pull is a shocking swerve or deus ex machina.

Of course, the problem with these tropes is proving that the creator didn't intend them all along and is just bad at foreshadowing.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 9th 2018 at 7:27:27 AM

That's my interpretation as well.

I take the "being bad at foreshadowing" to be pretty much in the same vein as the Informed Attribute tropes. It's bad writing that gives rise to the example of the trope. Of course, it doesn't have to be bad writing, but creators often use tropes without thinking about them, or simply by not adding enough material to avoid them (which may be due to laziness, lack of skill, or deliberately condensing the story for better flow).

So Ass Pull is a plot twist that's meant to resolve a plot point while Shocking Swerve adds a plot point?

Is this right and can I start cleaning up misuse?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Nov 9th 2018 at 12:38:50 PM

An Ass Pull doesn't necessarily need to solve anything, though. It can also prevent a plot point from being solved. Or it can just be a joke and not affect anything.

In short, Ass Pull is a broad supertrope.

So if an example falls under a specific trope like Shocking Swerve, I can cut Ass Pull for being redundant?

Yes.

I need to understand the difference between Fall Guy, The Scapegoat, Misplaced Retribution, Taking the Heat and Frame-Up.

The Scapegoat is someone who's blamed for x, Fall Guy is set up to be blamed for the crimes of x, Frame-Up is setting one up to be blamed for x, Taking the Heat is allowing oneself to be blamed for x, Misplaced Retribution is someone misblaming one for x.

Are the explanations being added to Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions?

And You Were There vs. But You Were There, and You, and You.

Latter says its subtrope of former.

Former doesn't wick back.

What's the difference of Breaking Old Trends and Nothing Is the Same Anymore? Both seem to be about changing the status quo.

I need to ask about Devoted to You and Undying Loyalty as well.

Edited by 4tell0life4 on Dec 14th 2018 at 4:36:53 AM