Moral Event Horizon cleanup

I'm not really sure that's true - he's presented as the irredeemable dark lord basically from the start, long before we ever meet him or learn about any of the things he did besides killing Harry's parents. If anything, the later in the series the books get, the more potential sympathy is given to him, even if he and Harry end up rejecting it at every turn

Well... an MEH should be a turning point in the narrative or at least have impact on the way the character is viewed. Since all of that stuff is backstory, by the time we learned of it he was already evil. IDK if there's an actual defined MEH for him.

That's best be when Harry is told (by Hagrid?) about him attacking Potter's house.

I've noticed MEH examples are going for "when character does something evil for the first time, chronologically" instead of "the single moment viewers lose hope of sympathy forever", and I wonder if it's the description issue. I'm also not sure if it makes for someone who's been Big Bad from the star.

Edited by Amonimus on Dec 27th 2023 at 8:22:27 PM

Well, MEH had a very long TRS not too long ago, and the current description is the settled definition. There just hasn't been enough cleaning.

This entry on The Office USS 3 E 15 Phyllis Wedding:

• Moral Event Horizon: For some viewers it became irreversibly impossible to feel sympathy for Michael after his It's All About Me antics in this episode, with few meaningful wholesome moments.

I don't think this is a valid example, since Michael continues to be portrayed sympathetically in future episodes. He also does "redeem" himself at the end of the episode by apologizing.

Edited by BocchiTheRock on Dec 28th 2023 at 4:43:34 AM

Since it doesn't seem to be referring to a particular act and his antics didn't mark him as irredeemable, I feel it's misuse too.

EDIT:No problem.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Jan 1st 2024 at 7:59:13 AM

Thanks for your feedback, I also wanted to look at the Power Rangers page since I see a lot of misuse on it. (I also cut Darren Cross from the MCU page since he got redeemed)

• Power Rangers in Space:
  • If abducting Zordon and draining him of his powers isn't enough for Dark Specter to cross it, then this sure is: Threatening to wipe out all life on Earth with a giant asteroid if the Rangers don't turn Karone back over, and even after she's brainwashed, he lets the asteroid continue on its course, anyway.
  Dark Specter does the Zordon abduction in his very first appearance, he's potrayed as 100 percent evil from even before he appaears on screen.

• Power Rangers: Dino Thunder: Mesogog crossed it in "Thunder Storm, Part 2" by capturing Lothor in a jar.
  This isn't really an example as it's Evil Versus Evil and the audience is not supposed to feel bad for Lothor, this act is not potrayed as unspeakably bad (especially when compared to kidnapping and attempting to kill his alter ego's adopted son) and Lothor himself is a Base-Breaking Character so this could have been the way for writers to please fans who disliked him.

• Power Rangers RPM:
  • The show's premise is Venjix DESTROYING 99% OF HUMANITY. Also when he gains control of all the hybrids he experimented and hid in Corinth there are children among them and they don't even look a year over ten. Everything Venjix does qualifies for this trope.
  We literally learn this from the show's opening narration, Venjix is potrayed as evil from the very start.
  • While not as bad as Venjix, Alphabet Soup crosses the line at some point when they (your choice):
    • keep super intelligent people, including children, imprisoned for their entire lives under the belief they're allergic to the sun
    • ALLOWED VENJIX TO ESCAPE by not letting Dr. K install the firewall to stop the virus from spreading
    • tried to murder Dr. K to cover up Venjix's origins.
  I think having 3 moments is a lot, and they literaly are shown taking Dr K in their first appearance.

• Just like its spiritual predecessor RPM, Power Rangers Beast Morphers has a MEH for a backstory: Evox infecting the Morph-X to create evil versions of Blaze and Roxy.
  This literally happens in the first episode, as soon as we meet them.
  • Cyber Roxy even talks smack about the real Roxy the second the former is born.
  Again this is the first thing she ever does she didn't cross anything.
  • Scrozzle crosses the line by imprisoning the Rangers in Christmas ornaments.
  I feel this is potrayed too unseriously to really be this.
  • It's revealed that Evox crossed the line over a decade ago, being Venjix reincarnated.
  I already talked about how Venjix does not count.

Edited by BocchiTheRock on Dec 31st 2023 at 9:43:31 AM

Well, the thing with Alphabet Soup is that they appear to be WIE, but later turn out to be the opposite. I'm giving Alphabet Soup a rewrite to accommodate their Villainous Legacy.

And while what Dark Spectre did to Zordon is doubtless nasty, it's still not as vile as going back on a promise to spare Earth. Granted he's evil from the start, but he's not that evil from that start. So I'm inclined to call Dark Spectre a keeper.

Otherwise, everything else is an easy cut.

YMMV.Kingdom Hearts Chain Of Memories

• Moral Event Horizon: Marluxia, the one who is placed in charge of Castle Oblivion, is certainly not a good boss to work under. He's very manipulative to all he meets, including his fellow members stationed with him in that place, especially when he forces Vexen to fight Sora by exploiting his fear of "The Superior". To make matters worse, he plotted to usurp control of the Organization with Larxene tagging along by having Sora lose all of his memories which would put the boy under his sway, intending to use him to defeat all of his colleagues to that end; the fact that Sora is still a kid only causes his morality to be confirmed to be downright evil. His treatment of Naminé isn't all that better; he doesn't care about her personal space, constantly abuses her verbally and tries to use her as a Human Shield when brawling with Axel (and he does the same during his final battle with Sora in the manga adaptation).

Okay, where’s the MEH crossing? This is just a big long ZCE that’s only describing the bad things he did.

It ends up feeling like a Complete Monster entry despite him not meeting criteria.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jan 11th 2024 at 11:51:03 AM

Yes, this just lists him being the Big Bad and Bad Boss, which is known from the start.

I guess his Villainous Breakdown when Sora and Riku Replica side with Namine despite knowing their memories are fake, and her rebelling, trying to get rid of all three could count, or starting the plot of the game in the first place, but I'm not familiar enough with KH Fandom, if viewers thought his morality is ambigious until then.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 11th 2024 at 10:57:33 PM

From The Mighty Boosh;

• Moral Event Horizon: In "Strange Tale of the Crack Fox", Vince lets Howard take the fall for him and get fired because it results in him getting a nice cape. Likewise, in "Call of the Yeti", in exchange for the location of the titular Yeti, Howard looks the other way toward Kodiak Jack attempting to rape Vince.
  • Dixon Bainbridge is happy to murder, mutate and con anyone and anything just to earn himself an extra Euro

The show is basically a Sadist Show that I'm fairly certain runs on Negative Continuity.

RE: Marluxia: Given we later find out his Somebody was an old keyblade warrior along with Larxene, I'd say his abuse of Namine and Sora falls more under Kick the Dog. He DEFINITELY fails the standard to be a monster and given KH 3 gives the entire Organization redeeming qualities, wouldn't count as one either. Anyway, it's hard to talk about Kingdom Hearts without giving a log of the Kudzu Plot away, but with that being said cut the entry to his worst actions and move them to Bad Boss and Kick the Dog.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:31:19 AM

I am confused about how this thread works. I thought moral event horizon was an audience reaction about when the audience thinks a character is has done something so bad that they can never be redeemed, but is it an In-Universe trope?

No, it's not. (I personally believe it should be, but TRS outvoted me on that)

Just removed a leftover copy-paste of Mr. Krabs' "MEH crossing" on KnightTemplar.Western Animation

Can a character cross the MEH and still have some sympathetic/likable moments afterward as long as it's made clear that they're never going to be fully redeemed?

Edited by Javertshark13 on May 25th 2024 at 9:08:15 AM

I think so?

Yes. Characters do not have to be 100% pure evil to cross the MEH. They can be occasionally portrayed sympathetically after the crossing (and a large number of Tragic Villains are,) but if it's too much of a regular thing it doesn't count.

MEH is "this character is beyond redemption," not "this character has become Satan incarnate."