Moral Event Horizon cleanup

All for leaving that note, I think it's pretty clear that Walt's MEH is the poisoning of Brock and it should say exclusively as much.

Got it! For posterity, I added the following note:

Walter White's singular Moral Event Horizon has been decided on by the cleanup thread. Please do not change his bullet point without discussion; if you would like to discuss it further, please take it here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=14984878480A61564600&page=1

So, I recently moved a MEH entry that was on Black Panther's character page, but I'm curious if this counts (especially since it's about a hero). I haven't read this story, so I'm not sure if this is a proper example and I'm curious if anyone more familiar with the comics could weigh in:

It definitely doesn't count.

MEH isn't just about "the character did a bad thing." It's "character did a bad thing, and the narrative treats this as their beginning moment of being irredeemable."

Storm and T'Challa have both been considered typical, morally upstanding heroes in many stories since then.

Long running comics rarely have MEH moments, because even the most vile characters get redeemed by writers at some point.

Here, "nearly forced to" sounds like both an illegal subversion and a misuse.

Edited by Amonimus on Sep 3rd 2023 at 2:20:39 PM

Also a ZCE due to the use of "this."

Found this on YMMV.Slow Damage which I bring for being very wordy:

• Moral Event Horizon: While some of the love interests' less-than-savory actions are a popular subject of debate among fans, none of them will have any arguments about how the villains' actions and motivations are nothing short of abhorrent.
  • Even when putting aside all the unspecified crimes Maya had committed or how she's behind most of the unsolved deaths in Shinkoumi, running a child brothel — which then necessitated child-trafficking on the Takasato-gumi's part — and subjecting both her son and countless other children to a Fate Worse than Death at the hands of all kinds of sickening people in said brothel are already crossing multiple lines. And that's not even without mentioning her responsibility in Mei's death, or her attempt to kill Towa when he found out and confronted her about it, or even her plan to have Towa groomed into becoming her successor when she realized that her death was imminent.
  • Sakaki also proves to have gone off the very deep end a long time ago by willingly aiding Maya in her crime spree and supporting her beliefs and her goals, to the point that he shows no sympathy whatsoever for the children trapped in Euphoria, regarding them as no more than literal goods. And to add, he's also the one who took Mei's life. It may be Maya who had given the order, but Sakaki nevertheless followed said order and killed Mei himself, and he took great delight in taking her life if the way he gloats to Fujieda about it is any indication.
  • Toono's plan to distribute deadly narcotics as a means of extending his influence to the mainland and taking control of the Takasato-gumi already solidifies his standing among the worst of the lot, especially when taking into account all the people who died from being used as unwilling test subjects for the drug and the fact that his plan ending in success would mean that the city of Shinkoumi would become a den of brain-dead drug addicts.

Here the rewrite for some of the entry:

• Maya crosses the line before the game even starts, when she ran a brothel where the people visiting can fulfill their darkest desires on innocent people, with many of the slaves being children, including her own son.
• Sakaki crosses this when it’s revealed he was a supporter of Maya’s beliefs and showed no sympathy for the innocent victims of her disgusting establishment as well the one who killed Mei.
• It’s clear that Toono’s in the deep end when he plans to distribute deadly narcotics as a means of extending his influence to the mainland and taking control of the Takasato-gumi and subject many innocent lives into becoming brain-dead drug addicts.

How do they look?

I don't think that by our rules anymore a character can have crossed the line before the work began. Though maybe I'm wrong.

Any other opinions on the rewrite of ?

The YMMV page for The Shining has an MEH entry under the film section that says simply "Jack crosses it when he kills Dick. At that point, there's no turning back." This doesn't give much detail and doesn't explain why this puts him across it. Does it need more elaboration or should it just be cut?

IDK, but it could probably be commented out and not cut entirely if it's valid.

@Ayumi-chan

Those look good to me! Though again, we can do without Maya if she "crosses the line" before the story begins.

Edited by ShootingStar7X on Oct 25th 2023 at 6:36:21 AM

Did Beast Boy and Cyborg cross the MEH in Teen Titans Go!?

So in the episode Hey Pizza! all the way in Season 1, BB and Cyborg attempt to get free pizza but no matter what methods they use, the delivery guy always manages to make it to them on top.

So in one last effort to one-up the guy, Cyborg presses a secret button on the Titan computer that activates a laser they have in space. The laser activates and fires down into the pizza joint, completely destroying it and nearby buildings and cars. It's clear they've probably killed at least 50 people.

So my question is that should this be considered a Moral Event Horizon moment for these two?

If it's played for comedy and they're still heroes afterwards, it doesn't sound like a valid example.

Only villains can cross the MEH; and as much as we want them not be heroes, that's what they are.

Cut.

On that note -

Just cut Iron Man and Captain Marvel from MoralEventHorizon.Marvel Universe.

They've unquestionably done dickish, unsympathetic things that some fans see as unforgivable. But they're both still presented as heroes and that stuff's been forgotten or explained away as time goes on.

If anyone challenges it, we can always discuss here.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 4:27:15 PM

Two different works here: RWBY and Red vs. Blue:

On the MoralEventHorizon.Web Animation, there are multiple entries for RWBY. However, on the YMMV.RWBY there's only one entry. So, I've brought them here to figure out which ones should be kept and crosswicked, if any.

• RWBY:
  • Adam Taurus turns out to have a lot of issues with Blake for abandoning him during the Black Trailer. He tells Blake he intends to destroy everything she ever loved for having the temerity to walk away from him. He stabs her to provoke Yang, then slices Yang's arm off. When Blake tries to shield Yang's body with her own, Adam victim-blames by asking her why she has to hurt him, then decapitates her. It turns out to be one of Blake's shadow clones to give her time to flee with Yang, but the illusion fooled Adam and he didn't hesitate to decapitate her. And later in Volume 5, he murders his boss Sienna Kahn in cold blood without a care in the world just to take her place as High Leader of the White Fang, this action disgusting even Hazel himself. He then orders his troops to kill Blake's family just to spite her for her leaving him during the Black Trailer. He's introduced in the show's prequel "Black Trailer", where Blake abandons him for telling her to blow up a train full of innocent people. Given that introduction, is there any MEH he can go through? The CM project does list him as a Complete Monster.
  • Cinder Fall crosses the line when she almost kills the Fall Maiden, Amber, in an attempt to steal her powers for herself. Later, she finishes the job, and murders Pyrrha by burning her from the inside out. She almost appears to pull back from this in Volume 8, only to Yank the Dog's Chain in the final episode of the season, by pretending to make peace with her former rivals, even taking their opinions into consideration, only to gruesomely execute both of them when she's done using them (Watts by setting his command center to self-destruct, Neo by throwing her into the void between worlds). Isn't "The Heavy does evil things because they're an evil villain" just standard fare? She is listed as a Complete Monster by the CM project.
  • There could even be a case that the Big Bad Salem had some redeemable quantities back when she was a false goddess - until she intentionally sicced the Grimm on any worshipers who weren't completely obedient to her. This is what convinces Ozpin that she cannot be reasoned with. This is a Whole Episode Flashback to reveal the Start of Darkness for the Big Bad. The episode reveals her actions once got humanity wiped out by the God of Darkness prior to them returning for a second chance; the God of Light warns Oz that she's not the woman he remembers, but he's suffering from Love Makes You Dumb so he ignores all the red flags until she suggests they instigate an Adam and Eve Plot involving their magical children (the entry's inaccurate). So, I guess it's a MEH for Oz, but is it one for the audience?
  • Tyrian Callows was clearly not a gentle lamb when he was first introduced, but he spends all of Volume 7 showing how much of an irredeemable psychopath he truly is. Over the course of the volume, he slaughters over a dozen innocent civilians at Robyn's campaign rally, murders Clover in cold blood using Qrow's sword so that he can frame him, and takes sadistic glee in rubbing it in how Qrow's friend is dead and he's going to escape. Tyrian is Practically Joker, a serial killer who wants to watch the world burn. His first scene consists of him laughing gleefully at the thought of getting to kill The Heroine and being disappointed that the Big Bad wants her captured alive. Everything else is just him fulfilling the promise of that introductory scene. Does he count?
  • James Ironwood always tread the line in his contributions to the fight against evil, but Volume 7 sees him teetering closer and closer to the edge as the heroes try to keep him from Jumping Off the Slippery Slope. In "Gravity", he learns that Salem is coming to attack the kingdom personally, and decides to raise the floating city of Atlas into the orbit to escape her. When Blake points out that he'll be leaving the remaining citizens of the kingdom to be killed by the Grimm, he calmly states, "Yes, I would," with the same ease you would ask to have your lunch to go. No more than two episodes later, Oscar tries to talk sense to Ironwood, and concludes that Ironwood's extremist mindset makes him as bad as Salem. Rather than disputing the point, Ironwood just shoots Oscar. His actions in Volume 8 confirm his descent into villainy when he guns down Councilman Sleet, a defenseless, democratically elected official, in cold blood just for demanding answers for his recent actions, and threatens to destroy Mantle with a nuke if Penny is not returned to him, with the next episode confirming that he fully intends to follow through with said threat. This is the only one that has an entry on the YMMV.RWBY page.

Are any of these MEH?

• Red vs. Blue:
  • Agent Washington seems to cross the line when he "kills" Donut and Lopez during The Recollection, however, the reveal that the two survived, as well as Washington's Heel–Face Turn later in the series, ultimately make this a subversion. Examples Are Not Arguable and audience reactions cannot be subverted.
  • The Project Freelancer Saga:
    • Gamma is revealed to have crossed the line back during the Project Freelancer days with the reveal that it was him that caused Alpha to go insane, doing so by constantly putting him through simulations that always end with the death of someone Alpha cares about, an action even the Director feels is out of line. We already know Gamma is a villain by this point. The Freelance Saga is a flashback season show the origins of all these characters and A.I.s. Plus, the Director's reaction is supposed to be foreshadowing the Director's secret.
    • Sigma is revealed to have crossed the line back during the Project Freelancer days with the reveal that he was the one that caused Agent Maine to become The Meta, with his first orders of business being having The Meta brutally rip Eta and Iota out of Agent Carolina's head before throwing her off a cliff to her supposed death. This is just revealing who the real villain is — not the Meta, but the AI controlling him.
    • While the Director is ultimately portrayed as a Tragic Villain, there are two particular moments that could be considered crossing the line. The first comes from the Project Freelancer days, when he abandons Carolina, his own daughter, after the A.I.s have a breakdown, leaving her screaming in pain on the floor and not doing anything about it. The second moment comes from the present, with the reveal that he has been putting Agent Texas, the A.I. clone of his deceased wife, Allison, through Cold-Blooded Mind Rape in an attempt to create the perfect copy of the original Allison. By the end of it, Tex has been put in a state similar to that of Alpha back during his own torture. We don't know she's his daughter at this point, so it's hindsight at best, and second is the reason the Director is the villain in the first place (he's been completely warped by his inability to get over the death of his wife).
  • The Chorus Trilogy:
    • Lopez Dos.0 crosses the line when he takes control of CC and attempts to kill the Reds and Blues. Standard Killer Robot scenario?
    • Along with the reveal of being Evil All Along, Felix is revealed to have crossed the line by prolonging the Chorus Civil War with the purpose of killing everyone on the planet. While he may have been hired by a third party to do the job, Felix makes it clear that he's mostly going along with it for the chance to kill as many people as he wants. The entry glosses over this, but this is just The Reveal of who the villains are, and what their plan and personalities are.
    • Control, Locus and Felix's mysterious employer, had already crossed the line given that it's their plan to wipe out the population of Chorus, but the reveal that his true identity is Malcolm Hargrove, aka the Chairman, makes this worse when you take his prior actions into account. This reads more like a Hindsight entry than a MEH entry.
  • The Shisno Trilogy:
    • Temple has two particular moments that can be considered crossing the line. The first comes with the reveal that he's been murdering Freelancers by locking their armor and then leaving them to die of starvation/dehydration, which he then attempts to do to both Wash and Carolina. The second moment comes with the reveal that he created Church's "message" using an old recording, then used the "message" to lure the Reds and Blues out, which he proceeds to rub in their faces. This is just The Reveal (the helpful guy is Evil All Along).
    • Genkins crosses the line by killing Huggins by sending her into a black hole. This is part of the reveal that the current day villain turns out to have been created in a sort of time paradox and this is the reveal on how that happened.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 3rd 2023 at 5:29:31 PM

YMMV.Rudolph And Frostys Christmas In July lists two scenes for the same character:

• Moral Event Horizon: Winterbolt either crosses this when he blackmails Rudolph by threatening to let Frosty and his whole family, children included, melt, or when he takes Frosty's hat and turns him into a normal lifeless snowman under the false promise he would restore Rudolph's nose, something he cannot do.

Going to review The Good Place. Worth noting this is a show that makes a point that nobody is truly Beyond Redemption, which the entry even admits.

The examples for BoJack and Beatrice were removed from YMMV.Bo Jack Horseman. While I get the argument, I think they should be reinstated, or at least the BoJack one should as it's been discussed. Beatrice was aware of what she was doing to Hollyhock — even if she was unaware of many other things, and probably didn't understand the consequences of what she was doing, she told BoJack she was slipping her the Chub-B-Gone "just until she learns to take it herself." However I can see an argument that she wasn't lucid enough for it to be depicted as her crossing a line, but I read that scene as when BoJack realizes she will never be a better person, even if he gives her a chance.

As for BoJack, while he does realize his mistakes at the end, the show treats his role in Sarah Lynn's death as his MEH, as everyone turns on him and he loses everything because of it, including his friends. The issue is more that he's not Beyond Redemption but the show also makes it clear he can never undo the damage he's done.

Sounds like you can delete all of those except maybe Trevor. I assume he doesn't get redeemed?

I double checked and yeah Trevor doesn't get included in the redemption, so he's probably valid.

Yeah sounds right. He keeps. Everyone else can zog off.

This was just added as a subbullet to Anastasia.

• Arguably Bartok of all people cross it when he sees Anastasia escaping and warns Rasputin about that so his master can personally kill her.

This comes across as wrong to me not just because Examples Are Not Arguable, but because that's the only real bad thing Bartok does, and throughout the rest of the film he's more of a Punch-Clock Villain who hangs around Rasputin's lair without doing anything evil.

Voldemort is a character that has crossed the MEH, but as the MEH can only be crossed once, we have to decide which of the potential moments (from creating his first Horcrux to murdering James and Lily) mark the point of the Dark Lord being Beyond Redemption.