Hi, folks! We're currently in the middle of an extended wiki development project that will add some nifty tools to the moderation kit (and some bells and whistles for tropers as well). While a full list of what's coming is outside the scope of this topic, there is one very specific thing that needs community involvement and feedback: the namespace configuration system.
In a Nutshell
We're changing namespaces from informal components that anyone can add (you can make an article in the "Glurkbrgl" namespace if you want, just by editing it) to a formal list of allowed values. This list can be added to and offers additional controls, such as the ability to set which style sheet is used by articles in the namespace, which page type is the default, the icon for the namespace tab bar, and how editing and article creation work.Namespace Configuration System
- Namespaces will be itemized in a database table.
- There will be a php page where anyone can view the list and the settings for each namespace, and mods can edit them.
- The configuration system will have (roughly) the following attributes:
- Name: (Main, YMMV, etc.) This will include the canonical capitalization of the namespace (see below).
- Editing Status: This will be a selection from a list of possible restrictions, from "Open" (anyone can edit/create articles) to "Require TLP" (article creation must go through Trope Launch Pad) to "Closed" (nobody can edit or create articles), and a few more.
- Page Type: The default page type to assign to articles in the namespace (a work, a creator, a trope, a subpage, etc.).
- Style: Main, Darth Wiki, Sugar Wiki, etc.
- Auto-Index: Whether the namespace behaves like normal or is automatically indexed, such as in Laconic Wiki.
- Icon: Choose the icon that appears in the namespace tab bar in the header of wiki articles.
- When anyone requests a wiki article (HTTP GET to pmwiki.php), the namespace part of the URL will be checked and forced to the proper capitalization. This will prevent things like "Ymmv", which break wiki functionality.
- When anyone tries to create or edit an article, the namespace configuration will be checked to determine if that action is allowed. If creation is blocked, a suitable message will be displayed. If editing is blocked, then the article will display as locked.
What We Need
What we need from the community is agreement on which namespaces should be kept and which should be discarded. The wiki has accumulated a lot of cruft due to the free-for-all nature of namespace creation, and we want to start with as clean a slate as possible.For reference:
- The formal namespace list is here: Namespace.
- The complete list of namespaces may be viewed with this tool: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/articlecount.php
- The full list of articles in any particular namespace may be seen here, except that it won't work for Main: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/namespace_index.php?ns=YMMV.
How This Will Work
If we decide not to keep a namespace, any articles in it should either be cut or moved to a more suitable namespace. Any such namespaces that have remaining articles when the new system goes live will be set to "Closed", so that nobody can make new ones and the existing ones will be automatically locked.For all remaining namespaces, we need to populate the initial settings: page type, editing status, and style. Note that many of these are already known and configured, so we'll carry those over — there's no need to renegotiate the status of Main or YMMV, for example. I'm mainly talking about the odder ones like, say, Castle.
After the system goes live, if anyone tries to add an article that isn't in an approved namespace, the attempt will be blocked. Requesting new namespaces would be done in the Locked Pages topic or some other topic we create specifically for that purpose.
Rules and Procedures
- The working list of namespaces to load into the configuration system will be stored in Namespace Cleanup Project.
- Any user may bring up a namespace that they think should be removed or given special handling.
- If there is significant immediate consensus, we'll approve it and any required actions (cleanup, transplants) can begin.
- If consensus is not clear, then we will use a crowner to collect votes.
We will also answer general questions about the system in this topic, but we will keep it focused specifically on the namespace project. Off-topic thumps will be used if needed.
- Q: Are we changing any media namespaces (Film, Western Animation, Manhua, etc.)?
A: No, we are not. That's not in the scope of the project; the intent is to configure all media namespaces as they currently exist. - Q: What are we doing with examples subpages (like Castle.Tropes Ato D)?
A: We want to clean those up. Check out this post to see some ideas, and this Google Drive doc for a list of all such articles.
Note: We can't just merge them back together, as most were hard split for size to begin with. - Q: So what should we focus on?
A: That's a great question! We're looking mainly at namespaces that have fewer than 40 articles in them, and that are not medium namespaces. In other words, let's start from the bottom of the list. In particular, let's get rid of one-off namespaces that aren't being used for actual trope content. - Q: Is there a list of all namespaces that are being used for trope example subpages?
A: Thanks for asking. Yes, it's here. Note that some media namespaces were caught in the query.
Edited by nombretomado on Jan 5th 2020 at 11:39:34 AM
(Avatar by Coffee)
So there's consensus to move any 1-page namespaces to Examples/? I don't want to do work just for someone to have to do it all over again because the decision is different.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Veteran Editor IV
Okay, I'm sorry... ignore my previous post.
edited 26th Jul '17 4:32:16 AM by Piterpicher
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
I think that creating an Examples/ namespace now would create inconsistency among the namespaces. I'd like to have a clear idea on whether and if so when 2.0 will be feasible before committing to that move.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Blapper of Water
Well, if there's only one or two pages in that namespace, then I think we should consider whether that one page is worth keeping as split or whether that content should be moved back to its main page (not necessarily the Main/ namespace, just to be clear). Sometimes, the moved content is not large enough to justify the split (e.g. you don't need to scroll down the page to get to the bottom of the list, etc.), and in those cases, I think moving the examples to their own page (whether Examples/ or not) is unnecessary.
What I mean is: Before we decide on where to move those examples en masse, we could look at and judge the pages in these small namespaces and move them back to their main pages. Presuming that that content wouldn't get split after the 2.0 change.
(An example of what I mean is something like TokenGoodTeammate.A Song Of Ice And Fire, which isn't particularly long and could be put on Main.Token Good Teammate or the works example list.)
edited 26th Jul '17 7:48:35 AM by WaterBlap
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
For split works, what about Tropes Page 1/, Tropes Page 2/, etc.? That way the number of namespaces is kept to a relative, managable minimum but retain their presence in the tab bar.
Really, this whole question of what to do with split example lists is just a stopgap until 2.0 comes along. Until then any change we make is basically asking the troper base to learn a new system and then learn another new one, potentially closer to the first one, once 2.0 hits. That's why my preference would probably be something as close to the current system as possible, followed by the system that leads to Examples.Biting The Hand Humor Fox Animated Shows or Examples.Bioshock Infinite A To D. Even then, for tropes with particularly large example lists spanning several pages and including work-specific pages, I'd still want to keep the current system.
If it's still going to be a super-duper long time before 2.0 hits if at all, like several years, then I'd be fine with a more radical change, but if people are going to be just getting used to the new system when another one is sprung on them, I'd prefer if the transition was as smooth and linear as possible.
Lost in Space
Unfortunately, we're not in a position to make any definitive statements about 2.0. There's some quantum uncertainty about it at current that won't resolve until we get through the "1.8" update.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
An Ice Girl
Hello, I wish to help a little. Do you need anything specific done over the next days? I should have some time.
I also have a question: why does the Visual Novel namespace not have an icon? Is this just an oversight?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
- I'd suppose, maintain Namespace Cleanup Project, 'cause it's about a month behind what's actually going on.
Veteran Editor IV
Hello, me again. I've found some peculiar sandbox namespaces that may need a cut or a move.
- Sandbox2 and Sandbox3: these seem to be sandboxes for tropers. I thought we should change it, for instance Sandbox2.Toony 123 to Sandbox.Toony 123 Part Two or something... would it be necessary to send them a PM?
- Trope Sandbox and Pantheon Sandbox: Ronnie R15 has both a Sandbox and a Trope Sandbox... as well as a Pantheon Sandbox. I think it should either be merged with the normal sandbox or split to pages like Ronnie R 15 Trope Sandbox or Ronnie R 15 Pantheon... once again, is a PM recommended?
- WikiSandbox: Now, this one looks very problematic. This is a namespace that's used for OTT. I think it may be moved to a normal Sandbox.OTT page, or straight to the On the Tropes page... but why is it locked? Isn't a point of a sandbox being able to edit it for everybody? If we moved it to a normal sandbox and locked it, it would feel wrong. Please, don't lock it. I don't think a PM is necessary in this case. Thank you.
edited 6th Aug '17 10:39:26 AM by Piterpicher
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
That third item is the On the Tropes page; it's an admin thing. I'll ping ~Ronnie R15; Toony 123 was banned so it's probably best to ask the Pantheons thread if they need the content.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Veteran Editor IV
Maybe WikiSandbox.OTT could be moved to Administrivia.OTT if it's meant to be admin only? Also, all the other guys... Should they get a PM?
- Nightelf 37 has a Sandbox2 and a Sandbox3 (Active, last edit yesterday)
- Otemple 700 has a Sandbox2 (Active, last edit yesterday)
- Thavidu X 1234 has a Sandbox2 (Somewhat active, last edit 5 days ago)
- TropesForever has a Sandbox2. (Active, last edit yesterday)
- Keep as is
- Rename the trope (For example, Dead Air On The Radio or Dead Air Radio Troubles), cut Disambig.Dead Air and move the disambiguation to Main.Dead Air
- Give all pages in the Ambiguity Index a Disambig namespace instead of the Main namespace. And if this would happen, would it be possible for the Disambig namespace to get an icon?
- Make a folder in Main.Dead Air called Did you mean? and cut Disambig.Dead Air
edited 6th Aug '17 3:39:17 AM by Piterpicher
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
- 4 is the best solution in my mind. None of these 4 tropers is banned.
Ronnie
@ SemptimusHeap: Thank you for bring this to my attention.
@ Piterpicher: I'm afraid I don't understand the problem with my sandboxes. I have one dedicated to the Trope Pantheons, making new tropes and one for everything else. I did this to try to keep everything a little more orderly and easier to find when working.
Veteran Editor IV
Ronnie R15, there's no problem with the sandboxes themselves. What IS a problem is their namespaces. Those are the only pages in the TropeSandbox and PantheonSandbox namespaces. We should move them somewhere else. Which of these ideas would you accept?
- Ronnie R15s Pantheon and Ronnie R15s Tropes
- Ronnie R15's Pantheon Sandbox and Ronnie R15's Trope Sandbox
- Ronnie R15s Trope Ideas and Ronnie R15s Pantheon Ideas
edited 6th Aug '17 10:55:08 AM by Piterpicher
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Ronnie
I guess the second option, is it alright if I make redirects to them?
I should probably move the content on my sandboxes eventually. I and some other tropers were using them to draft some articles.
Veteran Editor IV
@ Ronnie R15: Nope, you shouldn't keep even redirects in bad namespaces. Please move them to the suggested pages you've accepted and cut those.
Also, another thing: there's three pages in the TroperSandbox namespace.
- Alex Sora 89 has a TroperSandbox (Inactive, last edit in 2015)
- Evilgidgit has a TroperSandbox (Somewhat active, last edit about two weeks ago.)
- Tyson 666 has a TroperSandbox (Somewhat active, last edit about two weeks ago.)
edited 7th Aug '17 7:10:18 AM by Piterpicher
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
(Avatar by Coffee)
Poke them via PM, give them a few days to respond. No reason to take unilateral action if people can do it of their own will.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Veteran Editor IV
I've poked Ronnie R15, Alex Sora 89, Evilgidgit and Tyson 666 to post 118. Giving them five days to check it.
edited 7th Aug '17 7:22:32 AM by Piterpicher
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Evilgidgit
Hey, there. Thanks for the poke. The only Sandbox I could find was this one: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WikiSandbox
Are we allowed our own Sandboxes like say on Wikipedia, or is the link above the only exception? I couldn't find any personal user ones besides the other two you have linked in your post. I made mine as it was a good place to practice writing and using the website's formatting. If it is not allowed, then I'm fine with it being deleted.
edited 7th Aug '17 10:03:34 AM by Evilgidgit
Look out, space ponies. I'm making gravy without the lumps!
Sandbox.Evilgidgit is OK yes.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ronnie
@ Piterpicher: Am I allowed to keep the regular sandbox?
Blapper of Water
"Sandbox/" is the correct namespace, so any page in that namespace ought to be fine. The problem are the "Trope Sandbox/" and "Pantheon Sandbox/" namespaces. Other problematic namespaces include "Sandbox 2/" or "Troper Sandbox/" and stuff like that. Just put it in "Sandbox/" and have the page name (i.e. whatever is after the namespace) be whatever makes sense for the page..
edited 7th Aug '17 7:19:06 PM by WaterBlap
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Blapper of Water
By the way ~JeanPo has made their username into a namespace for four sandbox pages. Even though the pages should be Sandbox.Juju P, Sandbox.Juju P 2, Sandbox.Juju P 3, and Sandbox.Juju P 4.
I think it would be better if trope examples for works would be in a ExamplesForWorks, while examples in trope lists would be ExamplesForTropes. Probably a dumb suggestion, and these namespaces would be rather long, but at least they would be clear.
edited 25th Jul '17 10:52:07 PM by Piterpicher
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)