Trump and ROCEJ

edited to add this information, since this is going to be a long clean-up

"Donald Trump, as with any other current political figure, should not be a subject of any trope example on the wiki, except:

• When the work in question specifically mentions the RL individual.
• When the entirety of the example has to do with the portrayal of that individual in the work.
• When the work is fictional.

All three of these must apply.

Alternatively:

• When the RL individual has a creative role themselves, such as writing or acting in a work. In this sense we give them no more nor less treatment then we would any other creator.

Additionally, please make sure to take out any examples of "Funny Aneurysm" Moment, Harsher in Hindsight, or Hilarious in Hindsight regarding these political figures. A political event that may be seen positively by some people may be seen negatively by others.

We're starting with the wicks to Donald Trump (There were 751 of them at the starting point of this count.)

Wicks have already been checked and cleared up to

2/14/17 Inherent in the System

Given the current political climate, talking about Donald Trump on this Wiki is a very sensitive topic and pretty much any comment on him could easily end up violating the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment. I talked it over on Ask a Troper and a moderator gave me permission to start this topic. I feel it will be necessary to make sure any mention of him is safe and avoids politically charged or biased opinions. Right now, we need to stick to facts, not opinions.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Jul 27th 2020 at 2:06:58 AM

Wouldn't this be better suited to Long Term? Seeing as he'll be in power for at least the next four years (hopefully not eight... *shudder*), and controversy surrounding him will likely last years, possibly even decades following his exit from the White House.

I just figured that problems with him will last for a long while, but when you put it like that...nevermind, objection withdrawn.

It's a cleanup thread. I just don't feel it's appropriate to list him under Hilarious in Hindsight when he's not universally popular or Harsher in Hindsight or "Funny Aneurysm" Moment when he's not universally hated. I tried to have both sides of the issue acknowledged on YMMV pages but it got me suspended for violating formatting rules. I was told that if we can't do that it'd be best to delete the entry.

And honestly, I feel he's much more controversial than Obama and even Gamergate (which is banned).

Take this example from YMMV.Man Of The Year:

• Hilarious in Hindsight / Harsher in Hindsight: Which it is obviously depends on your view of the 2016 election, but Donald Trump...

This is appropriate, it discusses both sides of the issue and treats them equally. Doesn't give Harsher or Hilarious priority over the other, though it may be frowned upon formatting-wise.

Here's one from YMMV.Saturday Night Live

• Harsher in Hindsight: While very much Hilarious in Hindsight for the President-elect Trump's supporters, pretty much every pre-Election Day 2016 skit is this for Hillary Clinton's supporters, since most of SNL's skits predicted her victory. This one from 1994 which Parodied It's a Wonderful Life, which had Newt Gingrich's guardian angel informing him that Hilary (whom he had a long-standing dislike for) was president.

While it's only listed as Harsher, this trope does mention the other side of the issue. But it seems Harsher takes precedence over Hilarious here.

Finally, here's an example from YMMV.The Late Show With Stephen Colbert:

• "Funny Aneurysm" Moment: The 2016 Election Night show opened with a cartoon which satirically suggested Donald Trump was motivated to run for president because he was mocked by President Obama at the 2011 White House Correspondents Dinner. Literally overnight, the cartoon became one when Trump ended up winning the election.

This is where things become a problem. It was just a joke about Trump running for president and the outcome was just Trump winning the election. It didn't dive into the more controversial aspects of Trump's win. But it makes no acknowledgement of the fact that the joke could be Hilarious rather than Harsh to Trump's supporters and seems to suggest nobody was celebrating his victory. I understand Colbert is a liberal, and the other example isn't funny at all (as it was about the Paris attacks), but this just screams political bias.

edited 9th Feb '17 2:45:37 PM by LaptopGuy

Please pay attention to what Fighteer listed as the rules in the ATT thread:

"Donald Trump, as with any other current political figure, should not be a subject of any trope example on the wiki, except:

• When the work in question specifically mentions the RL individual.
• When the entirety of the example has to do with the portrayal of that individual in the work.
• When the work is fictional.

Alternatively:

• When the RL individual has a creative role themselves, such as writing or acting in a work. In this sense we give them no more nor less treatment then we would any other creator. "

This doesn't require discussion.

If there are so many mentions of him that it requires a dedicated clean-up thread, that's different. But I doubt that he's mentioned that many times. If you find an entry that does not meet those criteria, delete it and leave an edit reason to the effect of "violates Wiki policy on troping RL individuals and ROCEJ". If someone replaces it, report them in ATT.

Those three tropes are Audience Reactions, None of them can meet the criteria "When the entirety of the example has to do with the portrayal of that individual in the work.", since all of them are intrinsically about what an audience member thought about the portrayal, not the portrayal itself. It doesn't matter whether they are presented in a balanced way or not. . They are contrary to the policy on troping Real People.

Here's a good rule of thumb: If it's a YMMV page, Real People don't belong on it. Doesn't matter whether it's a positive, negative or neutral YMMV, it's not a trope. It's an audience reactions. This goes as well for listings on a works' page under YMMV tropes.

edited 9th Feb '17 3:01:05 PM by Madrugada

I agree. Deletion is the best option. Since I won't have time to delete all the things in here, we can just go through all mentions of Trump on the wiki:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=UsefulNotes/DonaldTrump

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=Creator/DonaldTrump

Start cleaning up here.

Ok, now this is a valid clean-up thread

Removed a "Funny Aneurysm" Moment on SNL's page for Trump (and one for Hillary too, in the interests of nonpartisanism). I'd do more, but I'm on mobile ATM and heavy duty cleanup just isn't practical.

edited 9th Feb '17 5:32:49 PM by Theatre_Maven_3695

Good idea Maven. After we're done Trump, we'll do Hillary next.

Then Obama, then Bush (both of em). Oh, and Slick Willie too

edited 10th Feb '17 3:39:26 PM by Theatre_Maven_3695

Obama's page could use a trim, especially that thing about Biden being Plucky Comic Relief.

Personally, I'm astounded it didn't get relocked after that racist troll hit it.

edited 10th Feb '17 4:39:21 PM by Theatre_Maven_3695

How's this been going? I haven't been able to get to it. He's on hundreds of YMMV pages — most under the Hindsight tropes. I hope this project hasn't been abandoned so quickly. We have a lot of work to do. Trump, Hillary, Obama, the Bushes...I feel we can put Brexit on there as well.

I got about 50. I'll make another pass at them once I finish my errands for today.

I'm going to edit the op and pin it and keep a running tally of how far we've gotten so that we aren't duplicating effort by going over pages someone else has already checked. So when you do some, post here the last good wick you found, Like "Done through Creator/CNN" I'll keep the pinned header updated.

edited 13th Feb '17 12:29:55 PM by Madrugada

I cleaned up a few pages, like Hoist by His Own Petard, Humiliation Conga, No Such Thing as Bad Publicity, and Downer Ending. I have to go to class soon, so that's all I can do.

Don't forget, while you're cleaning, to look for pages which might be candidates for discussion on the No Real Life Examples Please thread.

If people are using specific tropes to bash politicians they don't like, that's at least a hint that we might want to look at those tropes a little more closely.

I just cleaned up the Main.Donald Trump wicks. There is one ghost wick remaining (Webcomic.Pv P) and I am waiting on mod response in ATT on AMMV.Arnold Schwarzenegger.

I saw in Fridge.Hitman 2016 that other real life people were being troped. Specifically, Gary Busey. The weird death-wish was "hidden" behind a Take That! "example." No, Gary Busey wasn't crosswicked.

Steve Bannon was also troped.

The following pages seemed okay to me (and I moved the wick to UsefulNotes.Donald Trump):

• YMMV.Chapo Trap House
• Podcast.Chapo Trap House
• Music.Dali Van Gogh
  • A specific song was "a scathing" Take That! "against DT."
• Recap.Family Guy S 15 E 3 American Giggolo
• Saturday Night Live
  • The "Not Making This Up" Disclaimer and Early-Installment Weirdness examples seemed fine, but the one with Steve Bannon wasn't.
• Funny.Saturday Night Live 2010
• Funny.SF Debris Star Trek Deep Space Nine
  • He wasn't the subject of this example anyway.
• CouchGag.The Simpsons
• Funny.Vinesauce Vinny (under Affectionate Parody)
• AffectionateParody.Web Original

edited 14th Feb '17 7:35:52 PM by WaterBlap

Chapo Trap House had a "Funny Aneurysm" Moment about Trump winning the election. I cut it out.

I wouldn't list any mention of his election as a "Funny Aneurysm" Moment or Harsher in Hindsight until Trump goes down in history as a horrible president (and that's if he does) or Hilarious in Hindsight until it's clear his opponents' fears were overexaggerated (and that's if that is what happens). Otherwise, it suggests that he's universally hated or universally liked, which isn't the case.

On a somewhat unrelated note: What is the frequency of each of the three Hindsight tropes being used for Trump?

Also: I mentioned a couple of days ago on Dead Artists Are Better how Princess Leia became a symbol of the Anti-Trump resistance shortly after Carrie Fisher's death. I'm not sure if it's an appropriate example or not.

edited 14th Feb '17 9:18:25 PM by LaptopGuy

Arnold: I cut that. It's not Trump as a character nor is it Ahnold as a character, nor is CMOA acceptable anyway, since that's an Audience Reaction.

The one about Carrie Fisher: I saw that during the clean-up and cut it. The first half of the entry was fine. The chunk about the Leia memes wasn't.

Steve Bannon: Treat him the same way as Trump. Use the criteria in the pinned post.

edited 14th Feb '17 10:00:44 PM by Madrugada

re: Carrie Fisher: OK, but I see you removed the part about Debbie Reynolds. I don't think that's bad now is it?

edited 14th Feb '17 11:30:41 PM by LaptopGuy

It's not bad, but it's also not about Carrie Fisher. If Debbie qualifies (I don't think she does — the reaction was "Isn't that sad?, not an increased appreciation for her work) then she deserves her own entry, not to be a by-the-way on Carrie's.

Quick note: The PvP example was not a ghost wick but someone (t209) writing {{Donald Trump}} for some reason. Going through this person's history, it appears that they knew they could have just written DonaldTrump (since I'm not seeing this problem in a sampling of their other edits). That said, I deleted the example on Pv P.

edited 15th Feb '17 11:09:09 AM by WaterBlap

Just saying but, racist, sexist and a liar Donald Trump definitely is, and hate him the world most definitely does, and he's definitely arrogant and stupid (all opinions) he hasn't actually done anything much just yet except prove himself a hypocrite and throw a tantrum about the press picking on him.

He's not a creator.

So he really doesn't need a page all to himself right now.

Perhaps we should cut it//lock it entirely, but leave an explanation.

If not, add The Hypocrite to his page, huh? It shouldn't be tough, he's already whining about the press picking on him when he relentlessly used social media against Hillary Clinton. Honestly, he's the President; what did he expect from the press?

edited 18th Feb '17 3:31:45 AM by Tightwire

Two things. A) Trump has been moved to Useful Notes due to being a president now, and B) the fact that people believe adding tropes about real life figures is OK is why this thread (and the ROCEJ in general) exists in the first place. And Trump has also been locked for ages (and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future, seeing as he's been proven to be Flame Bait incarnate.