Condemned by History cleanup thread

Thanks! I hope that doing this will help us weed out the obvious cuts, so we only have to debate "iffy" works/creators. It worked pretty well when we cleaned Complete Monster by subpages, so I'm just taking the same tack.

Country was pretty painless to review, so I'll post that quickly.

Country Subpage - Subgenres and Trends Tab

• Nashville sound - Cut. The Nashville sound may not be made very much by modern artists, but I doubt you'd find people mocking Dolly Parton or Loretta Lynn for singing that style.
• Bakersfield sound - Cut. Similarly to Nashville sound, Bakersfield is not made much today, but Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard are legends, and the Bakersfield sound is practically a mythic country era.
• "Outlaw" sound - Cut. See Nashville and Bakersfield sound.
• Class of 89 - I really like how this paragraph outlines a shift in country music, and how it leads into two subjects via the introduction. Only thing is, the entry itself states that the Class of 89 doesn't count. Thoughts will be needed.
  • Hat Acts - keep.
  • Branson - keep. This whole Class of 89 and fall out entry is fantastic, best writing I've seen so far in these subpages.
• Bro country - I'm actually leaning cut. There's no doubt there's been a backlash to bro country. There's also no doubt that ladies are finally filtering back into country and trying to strangle the bro country trend where it stands. HOWEVER, bro country is still HUGE. People don't advertise Luke Bryan with his ballads; they play that Shake It For Me song. It hasn't been long enough to determine if the backlash to bro country is lasting.

Country Subpage - Male Artists Tab

• Rod Atkins - cut. He just flamed out.
• Billy Ray Cyrus - this needs a HEAVY trim, but is a good keep. I'm adverse to adding one hit wonders usually, but Achy Breaky Heart was pervasive AND is still mocked to high heaven.
• Toby Keith - iffy, leaning cut. His lasting legacy seems up in the air. I personally hate the guy, but I don't think country music hates him at all. I can get behind writing an entry on "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue", a song that's been thrashed in recent years, but I think Keith himself doesn't belong here.

Country Subpage - Female Artists

• opening paragraphs - the intro has got to go. Most of the information is factual - country has become wildly misogynistic and non-inclusive of women - but that means women never had much of a chance to establish careers that lead to DTD. It's good information that's not on target for the trope.
• Faith Hill - cut. I think that alienating her country fanbase is not nearly bad enough of a "scandal" to qualify for DTD status.
• Martina Mc Bride - cut. This entry baffles me a lot. I have NEVER heard complaints about her activism songs or belting, and I hear Independence Day CONSTANTLY during the 4th of July despite the subject matter.
• Jo Dee Messing - cut. She had a number one hit after the alcoholism that the entry posits as DTD worthy. Not really seeing it.
• Leeann Rhimes - Keep, but trim deeply. The focus needs to be more on the affair, which genuinely ruined her and made her both hated and mocked.

Country Subpage - Groups

• Dixie Chicks - very easy keep. The entry can be cleaned up a bit, but they are a good example of DTD, with a clear rise and fall.
• Lady Antebellum - cut. They're still getting #1 Country hits, so someone likes them.
• Lonestar - cut. This entry is more about Executive Meddling than DTD.
• Muzik Mafia - cut. Something this entry doesn't note is that Muzik Mafia ended up writing basically every hit country song that came after it and permanently fused rock in popular country. They changed the landscape.
• Sugarland - the entry's focus needs to be put on the accident at the festival, as that basically ended their careers and made them very hated. Keep but rework.

Country Subpage - Songs

• "Have You Forgotten?" - keep,but take out the info about Worley's career, as he does not count. I would also take out the line about "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue", since that song is pretty DTD nowadays.

Disco, as a page, is a pretty solid essay. Changes will be grammatical in nature there.

Next... Hip Hop. Which already SUCKS. Every entry is like ten pages long.

@Largo Quagmire: I'd cut the "Woman" example purely based on lack of context. The fact that the only sign that it was ever popular is apparently that it was aired on Belgian TV is...strange. I'd also vote for cutting greatest hits compilations and keeping Anita Bryant. Crazy Frog can probably stay on the music page; if it had its own trope page, it would be in the Music/ namespace.

Re: kayokyoku; popular Japanese artists/bands with influences from traditional Japanese music are pretty much limited to enka and angura kei bands nowadays, and even the latter take far more influence from rock/metal than from the folk stuff. I can't tell you whether or not kayo is actually hated in Japan, though, or if it's just a trend that died out. So I guess my answer is "maybe?" (I'm into Japanese music, but my specialties are j-metal and visual kei; pop's out of my league. Sorry about that.)

@everyone: Would it be helpful for me to go through the video games subpage, or would it be better to wait until Largo is finished with the music subpages?

One thing at a time is probably more orderly. We're not in a great hurry. I'm not exactly qualified to judge any music examples, though.

A long, strange entry about "rape culture" was added to the Real Life section recently that seems iffy to me. I can't tell what agenda it's pushing, the entry is so confusing, but it definitely seems like it's pushing one.

edited 25th Jun '16 8:29:08 PM by HamburgerTime

This site has no business even acknowledging the existence of rape culture. Delete as flame bait.

Done.

Noting for record-keeping purposes that the entry was restored by @Laptopguy with a note asking why it was deleted, then promptly deleted again by one @harryhenry, who politely gave more or less the same reasons already discussed in this thread: that's it's dealing with very controversial subjects better avoided. I made a null-edit directing anyone who wishes to discuss the matter further to this thread.

edited 25th Jun '16 10:30:48 PM by HighCrate

Thanks for the input, Miss Moku! I appreciate it.

I know music can be hard to judge, but one thing that really can be helped with is trimming entries. Some of these entries are RIDICULOUS in length, and it doesn't take a lot of specific knowledge to present an edited entry for consensus.

Should I make a list of iffy entries to solicit opinions for? We have a good chunk to work with before diving into (shiver) Hip-Hop.

Here are what I think. Artists aren't deader than disco if they were never really popular to begin with, a one hit wonder, just faded into obscurity, or may not be as successful as they used to be but are still respected and looked back at fondly.

Hip Hop

Keep - Iggy (punchline), Mystikal (rape), Soulja (punchline), T-Pain (punchline), Vanilla (punchline)

Maybe - Akon (he was just forgotten; he's not a punchline like T-Pain), Azealia (her career and controversies were far less visible than Iggy's), B.o.B. (he's not hated, just forgotten), Cee-Lo (despite his controversies, his biggest hits are still iconic), Ja Rule (an iconic downfall but he himself isn't really hated), LMFAO (two hits are still iconic), Hammer (his reputation hasn't been soiled like Vanilla's)

Delete - 50 (old work still iconic), Arrested (they were just forgotten), Peas (old work still iconic), J-Kwon (one hit wonder), Lil Kim (just forgotten, not hated), Mac (he's still doing fine), Mike (just forgotten), Nelly (still moderately successful), Sean Paul (still moderately successful)

Rock soloists

Keep - Glitter (child porn)

Maybe - Phair (poster child of "selling out", but her debut is still well-regarded)

Delete - Bassett (obscure songwriter), Bopper (not hated - just forgotten), Vicious (legendary rocker), Malmsteen (still a cult icon)

Rock bands

Keep - AILD (assassin), Creed (hated corporate rock), Limp Bizkit (brought down nu metal), Lostprophets (child porn), Nickelback (hated corporate rock)

Maybe - Drowning Pool, Hinder, Puddle

Delete - Buckcherry (obscure), Country Joe (legendary although obscure to modern audiences), Crazy Town (one hit wonder), ELP (legendary but obscure to modern audiences), Enabler (obscure), Evanescence (old work still popular), Everclear (just forgotten), Gaza (obscure), Hoobastank (just forgotten), Hootie (old work still popular), JFAC (obscure), Knack (one hit wonder), Nachtmystium (obscure), PL Ts (one hit wonder), Saliva (just forgotten), Saving Abel (obscure), Shadows Fall (still somewhat popular), Smash Mouth (old work still popular), Sonic Syndicate (obscure), Sugar Ray (old work still popular), Tokio (just forgotten), Trapt (Just forgotten), Winds (obscure), Woe (obscure), Wolfmother (still somewhat popular)

edited 26th Jun '16 1:31:53 PM by LaptopGuy

Here's what I'm thinking about the pop and country entries:

• Milli's the most obvious keeper.
• Avril's still looked upon nostalgically. "Hello Kitty" may be mocked but her old songs haven't been forgotten.
• Chris Brown shouldn't be here, he's in the same category as Kanye or Bieber: Successful but hated by many.
• Spice Girls should be taken out. Their reputation has been restored thanks to '90s nostalgia.
• Natalia Kills shouldn't be there, as she was never popular to begin with. If she stays, then there's no reason for Willy Moon or Ten Walls to be taken out.
• Psy's just a one-hit wonder whose shelf life was limited to begin with. While people may have grown tired of Gangnam Style, nobody ever really took him seriously to begin with.
• Jonas Bros should be taken out. Nick's solo career and DNCE are signs that it's OK to like them again.
• Thicke definitely stays.
• Avicii should go. He's very respected even though he hasn't had another big hit here.

edited 26th Jun '16 1:31:20 PM by LaptopGuy

On the plus side, everything on the Comics page looks good to me, except maybe the Sonic section which I'm simply not familiar enough with to make a call on.

Laptop Guy, it would help if you used bullet points (asterisks on the keyboard) to separate the entries you're commenting on.

You do bring up a point that I wasn't working with - nostalgia as a factor in DTD. I was not factoring nostalgia in at all to some of my opinions, particularly with the Spice Girls. Is this on mission for the trope?

I will stand by Avril Lavigne counting, as she is NOT looked on fondly, nostalgia or otherwise, and is an endless snark and Hatedom magnet.

I also stand by Jo Bros counting; the success their members have had in other avenues, far divorced from the Jo Bros output, kind of prove the opposite to me - that they had to escape the Jo Bros idea (Nick by going the edgier route, Joe by basically blending into DNCE, with few people aware he's even a member) to become famous again.

Natalia Kills was someone I kept based on her being popular enough in NZ to get a post on a reality show as a judge. People are usually picked for these jobs based on their name recognition.

edited 26th Jun '16 10:45:33 AM by LargoQuagmire

Alright guys, what are your opinions on this?

• The Shana Clones. Popularized by Shakugan No Shana back in the Turn of the Millennium, it created a new wave of "flat-chested tiny tyranical Tsundere girls" that later spawned some Spiritual Successors known as the "Four Tsundere Wonders"^note Shana, Louise, Nagi, and Taiga. Unfortunately by The New '10s, so many writers had picked up onto this trend that a lot of people simply became sick and tired of these characters popping up in nearly any anime, manga, and light novel works. It also put a huge dent in the Tsundere archetype as a whole, to the point where it's hard to even think of a Tsundere character that's not a tiny flat-chested girl. Nowadays, while the Tsundere archetype is still popular for other reasons (albeit not as much as it used to), most writers wouldn't even dare to touch on the Shana Clone character type and those that do are big risk takers met with very little success.

I originally wrote this example in the Anime And Manga section back in Febuary under the assumption that this type of genre was officially dead, but I quickly deleted it due to not finding enough sufficient evidence. So what do you guys think? Does this example officially qualify to be Deader Than Disco?

• Actually, I'd say that Avril's old stuff is looked upon fondly. "Hello Kitty" may be a popular target for mockery, but that doesn't stop "Complicated" and "Girlfriend" and songs like that from being classics of the '00s. Her ex-husband's band, on the other hand...
• Natalia wasn't really that known before the X Factor scandal. She was a minor figure even in NZ. According to Wikipedia, she had an #11 in the UK under an alter ego, two top tens in Austria and Poland, a top 10 and a follow-up hit in Germany, and a few hits in Belgium. And then there was her feature on an LMFAO song. It was her biggest hit in most places it charted but it only went top 10 in Australia and NZ.
• The Jo Bros' solo careers indicate that they're finally starting to be welcomed again. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't recognize Nick or Joe Jonas from the band or that the latter is the frontman of DNCE.

A few comments on the other sections:

• Family Guy is nowhere near DTD. Although it's gotten a lot of backlash in recent years, it's still a staple of modern pop culture and isn't close to fading into obscurity. Honestly, I think any show that's "Deader Than Disco" has to have ended or been cancelled first.

edited 26th Jun '16 1:47:39 PM by LaptopGuy

That example mentions that there still are writers who try the type, even if they're often not very successful. It's not quite as dead as the trope requires. The characters are usually less prominent (secondary characters rather than leads) nowdays when they appear as well.

For FG, I recall reading somewhere that Seth MacFarlane actually wants, or wanted at some point relatively recently, to end it, but I've never seen a source.

I would say that the Shana Clone trend is still alive, and not nearly has hated as the Little Sister. Cut.

I am willing to move cut on Natalia Kills, based on Laptop Guy expanding on her fame.

More input is needed for Avril Lavigne and the Jonas Brothers entries on Music page. Laptop Guy votes cut on all; I vote keep and edit on all. Summary, to help those weighing in:

• Laptop Guy says Avril's older work is well-regarded still; I believe there is no evidence for this, as her songs are not played at all anymore.

• Laptop Guy and I disagree on whether the fame of Nick and Joe Jonas currently affects their old band's status as DTD. I argue that they have made huge efforts to downplay and ignore their past work, and their fame is in spite of Jo Bros being DTD; Laptop Guy argues that their fame means that their old band, by extension, is not DTD.

I too think Comics may just need some entry cleaning, but don't know anything about Sonic either.

AAAAND we should get more inputon/clean based on input for Music and Country before moving on to further music pages.

If the members had to go in completely different directions to be successful again I think that's a point in favor of the JoBros, as a group, counting. Not the individual Jonas brothers, but the band "Jonas Brothers."

• About the JoBros: I'm going to say that '00s nostalgia will eventually vindicate them like the Spice Girls. NSYNC and Backstreet Boys were widely considered has-beens or jokes after they broke up/faded away (even when JT had a successful solo career). When '90s nostalgia kicked in, they became cast in a more positive light (see: "It's Gonna Be May" or "Backstreet's Back, Alright" as memes). The JoBros should get this as well one day.
• About Avril: Well, this indicates otherwise. Her songs get plenty of recurrent Airplay.

One more I thought of:

• Billy Ray wasn't a one-hit wonder on country radio, even if he was one on pop. I think what makes him DTD the most is that he's primarily known nowadays as his daughter's father.

Also, I want to talk about some possible additions

• Sinead O'Connor and the Pope incident on SNL

edited 26th Jun '16 5:32:00 PM by LaptopGuy

In answer to LargoQuagmire's question, typically, any widespread feelings of nostalgia— that people will admit to— disqualify it as Deader Than Disco, since it flies in the face of the requirement that people who once liked it are either ashamed of it or won't admit to it.

I don't know much about Avril Lavigne (not my type of music in general), but according to the Other Wiki, she was in the top 20 on the Billboard Hot 100 as recently as 2013.

I know we're working on the Music subpages now, but I have two points about other pages that I wanted to mention.

• Some people in another thread (I don't remember which) raised concerns over the Phineas and Ferb example on the Western Animation page.
• There's a Real Life page for this trope that I think deserves a look.

edited 28th Jun '16 1:18:38 PM by Spinosegnosaurus77

I don't think a TV show can be Deader Than Disco while it's still on the air. Clearly someone's watching it.

It ended last year.

Phineas and Ferb seems like a weird example. When the show aired its finale last year I saw far more positive reactions to the show as a whole than negative ones.

P.S: Hopefully you'll find that other thread with the discussion of the P&F example.

edited 28th Jun '16 1:49:30 PM by harryhenry