Relationship Critique Thread

@arreimil

We probably shouldn't talk about what happened (though you can PM me if you want the details). Anyway as to your relationship...

I guess my main question for you is, where do you see this relationship going? Given Gale's reservations and Ladaeilia's mounting insanity, this is a partnership that I can see ending in a number of very messy ways, ranging from her ordering his execution when he doesn't reciprocate her feelings, to his betraying her to whatever positive factions the story might have, as he sees what a beast he's helped make. About the only place I can't see it going is a functioning consensual relationship, which, given that's not what you're going for, is okay.

Psychologically, both of them seem believable, and Ladeilia's increasing instability has the potential to be both tragic and horrifying. How bad is it going to get, and does it ever improve?

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Been meaning to post this one for a while. The characters hail from a prospective story that I have not yet written (a phrase I use a lot in these threads). The setting is very loosely modeled on that of Bronze Age Europe, though with peoples moved around as best suits the story. This is probably the closest I'll ever come to a Star-Crossed Lovers plot (because god I hate that trope). Anyway, the relationship is at the core of the story (a rarity for me) and whether people think it works will more or less determine if I ever decide to write it.

Names: Demetrios and Aballa

Who are they? Demetrios is from Minos, one of several city-states that dominate the southern tip of the Pathenian peninsula. Pathenians (think Ancient Greece) in general, and Minosians (thinks Athens) in particular place a lot of emphasis on social hierarchies—male over female, old over young, etc. When Demetrios was an adolescent, he violated a fairly major social taboo by not only turning down, but striking an older man who propositioned him. His father (longtime Speaker of the Assembly), aghast, has treated him as an embarrassment ever since, keeping his son out of the public eye, and marrying him off to a child-bride from a lower class family (under the assumption it was the only match he could get). Now in his twenties, Demetrios is a sullen, unhappy man, who spends most of his time hunting outside of the city, exploring the wilderness, and avoiding his father, his peers, and his fourteen year old "wife" (who, I will note, he's never touched). Appearance-wise, he's a somewhat androgynous pretty-boy with tanned skin, long hair and (when geared for war) standard issue hoplite armour.

Aballa is a Kelad (think Celt or Gaul, but nomadic), a migratory people who roam the wilderness outside the city-states in war-bands, clans, and tribes. Her father died on a raid, her mother passed a few years later, and she's been supporting her younger siblings ever since, by going on raids as a warrior. While women aren't actually banned from doing so, it's still unusual, and only Aballa's demonstrable prowess—and her willingness to turn her berserker rage on anyone who tries to stop her—have kept her out in the field and unmarried. As far as looks go, she's tall, blonde, and muscular, keeps her hair in chalked spikes, streaks her torso with blue dye, and wears only a set of trousers. Armaments-wise she's got a long slashing sword, a heavy oaken shield, and a couple of throwing axes.

How did they meet? Demetrios and Aballa meet during a battle, when a phalanx of Minosian hoplites tries to halt a raid, and finds itself face-to-face with an entire Kelad tribe. The phalanx breaks, and flees, with Demetrios leading several survivors into the foothills he knows so well. Aballa and her war-band give chase, and then both parties find themselves under attack by the hill-men (think Thracians). One of them knocks Demetrios into a river, and Aballa, unwilling to leave a Worthy Opponent to drown hauls him out. Demetrios pays her back by stabbing a tribesman who was trying to sneak up on her, and then the pair find themselves on the run together, enmity temporarily forgotten.

What is the status of their relationship when the story begins? Demetrios and Aballa are enemies turned temporary allies. Neither expects this team-up to last long, but the hill-men prove persistent. Worse still, foreign legions, in service to a group called "the Triumvirate" (Rome) are in the area, and are trying to broker some sort of deal with the hill-men regarding the future of the peninsula—a deal that will be threatened if Demetrios and Aballa, who have seen the triumviral envoys make it back to their respective peoples. The two end up spending several months together on the run, and develop a dependence on one another. Aballa knows how to survive the wild better than Demetrios, but he knows this particular area better than she does, and neither one wants to face their enemies alone. Ultimately, proximity, and their mutual inability to fit exactly right into their parent cultures, breeds trust, then friendship, then the beginning of something more.

Problems? A boatload. Initially, the simple clash of cultures prevents Demetrios and Aballa from seeing one another as potential sexual or romantic partners. To Aballa, overly-pretty Demetrios is the antithesis of her people's macho masculine ideal, while Aballa's appearance, mannerisms, and dress, would have her imprisoned in Minos—and that's without getting into their culture's ancestral hatreds and stereotypes. Proximity, mutual dependence, and constant interaction eventually put paid to many of these issues, and they become friends, but it's a long while before it progresses further than that. Demetrios is the first to figure it out, and the realization that he's just spent weeks in the company of a half-naked girl causes him to have a bit of a Freak Out, and add a new layer of awkward to the situation. It's Aballa who ends up making the first move, planting a kiss on him seconds before he reenters Minos.

The problems only get stronger once they return to their respective homes, and start trying to broker an alliance to stave off the Triumvirate. With the political situation as fragile as it is, neither Demetrios nor Aballa dare to risk their people's futures by showing romantic interest in one another—if they do there's a good chance that their elders will write off the invasion as a lie, concocted to advance an "immoral" relationship. That's without getting into Demetrios being technically married, or Aballa's younger siblings and their personal hatred of the Pathenians for killing their dad.

What do they want? First and foremost, they want to form an alliance that can resist the Triumvirate's advances into the peninsula. They also wouldn't mind reforming their respective societies, at least somewhat. Demetrios, having broken social taboo, can see the benefits in the comparative freedom of Kelad society, while Aballa isn't blind to the fact that the Pathenians, with their better organized governments and settled lives tend to live a lot longer than their own people. Finally, they'd love the opportunity to explore the possibility of a romantic involvement with one another, though neither is sure how to proceed, given the political situation and the fact that despite all their months together, they've only kissed once.

Resolution? There are two possible resolutions as I see it. 1) Aballa and Demetrios become powerful enough within their societies to buck tradition, force through reforms, and openly marry. This is probably the happier, and certainly the more idealistic, ending. 2) After the war is over and won, and the Triumvirate has been sent packing, the two leave the peninsula for greener pastures. Both scenarios, of course, require that Demetrios find a humane way of separating himself from his "wife". Scenario 2 also requires that Aballa find someone who can care for her siblings, or alternately, take them with her. The more realistic, but perhaps less satisfying ending. One question I have for everyone, actually, is which ending do you think is better?

First of all: Poor Demetrios. His life sucks.

And i say who the second ending is the best. I think who Aballa must take care of her brothers, or who they become independant (How many years take the story?).

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I can post relationship between friend witouth romantic subject, right? (But i think who is gonna be a lot of Les Yay...). Is a relationship who is only seeing in flashbacks and backstory, is important to the plot and a mayor motivation for one character.

Names: Misao (No second name, i'm bad for names) and Caroline.

Who are they? Misao is a girl with very low esteem, she is a student in the Bachilea High School. She was and is bullied by many girls because she is the most asocial girl in the school, she is pretty depresive.

Caroline is a Genki Girl, she is really optimist and want help whatever people who can, she has problems with many girls in the school, specially with Yoshino, The Bully and one of the most despreciable character who i imagine (When the story progress and the real stuff start she just get worse, and worse, and worse).

How did they meet? Misao and Caroline meet in the gates of the School in Misao's first day. Misao help Caroline to find her classroom, and they become friendly. Caroline really like Misao's company and vice versa. The problem is who Misao become very dependant to Caroline in levels who eventually worried her, Caroline tried to help Misao introducing her to others but fails. They still being BBF (I just wanna use that term ) but sadly Caroline died in a mysterious way, her corpse don't has injuries. Misao just get even more depressed than usual and finally, she get broken. And that was the way who the story start. Poor Misao.

Problems? Misao is really dependent of Caroline, whe she died Misao just get too depresed in cronical levels. Eventually Misao start to discover Caroline Hidden Depths and her Dark and Troubled Past, Caroline start to become a Broken Pedestal to Misao. And she start to realize who Caroline was just a Nice Girl with many flaws. Even if Caroline is a Posthumous Character she has a big role into Misao development.

I wanna write a Posthumous Character and her relationship with Misao via flashbacks and get who the audience emphatize with her to help them to feel sorry for Misao and Caroline.

edited 23rd Sep '15 7:04:44 PM by KazuyaProta

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Sorry for having no feedbacks nor relationship, but I have to ask because it's been gnawing at me for so long.

What makes a couple, particularly romantic type, cute and make the readers wish the two end up together?

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

There's no hard and fast rule about that. Generally, though, I'd say the most important thing is for the two characters to make one another better people. They should improve one another's morals, courage, people skills, etc, etc, etc. If you can't persuade me they are happier with one another, I have no interest.

Who both have a personality and certain development?, who they both has good moments (like characters) before and after meeting each other?

....someone is here...i'm bored. Any opinion?

edited 3rd Oct '15 7:38:41 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country

Giving the thread a bump. Could still use more input on Aballa and Demetrios.

x4 For me, loyalty and trust. That feeling that, no matter what they might face, even if they go to the greatest dangers, they got eachother's backs. Probably why I love QuoteXCurly so much, even though their actual feelings for eachother are left to interpretation.

It doesn't have to be a Battle Couple to show this kind of bond. But because I'm a bit violent minded it's what I thought of first.

(I'll be back real soon with a critique, then I'll give a non-romantic one later.)

re: Misao and Correline

I certainly sympathize with them, though not knowing what Correline did I don't really know what to think of her. I would like it best, as you seem to be doing, if she was ultimately a good person even if she wasn't the shining beacon Misao saw her as.

How does Misao end up when all this is done? Does she forgive Correline? Is she able to reach out a little more and talk with other people?

I'm trying to comment, but if I encountered that situation in real life some of my views would be set against eachother. If I sort it out I'll give my views (and it's a good thing that he doesn't touch the fourteen year old, I'm not arguing against that.)

Mine's taking a lot longer to write than I thought, I need to get some sleep before continuing.

edited 4th Oct '15 4:42:31 AM by Novis

You say I am loved, when I don’t feel a thing. You say I am strong, when I think I am weak. You say I am held, when I am falling short.

Post when you can.

Thanks for you comment.

Is Caroline, and yes. She was a Nice Girl. Caroline was actually a Magical Girl Living a Double Life, like one of the explorers of "The Black Castle" (A Expy of The Tartarus of Persona3 ) and a student. Many of the explorers of the Black Castle was just dedicated to their missions but not Caroline, she was inmature and tried to living like a student and like a explorer. Eventually that killed her social life, she break up with her boyfriend, she get troubles with many of her friends. She accidentally break the heart of one of her friends.

But Misao was still thinking who Caroline was the best girl in the world. Caroline was a Misao Only Friend before that but they start become more close after Caroline emotional collapse.

Misao...not has a good life. She has a poor social life in all her life and when a Nice Girl like Caroline start to help her...she just loved her. Not in a romantic way sure...but you can look it like that.

Misao character is about getting over her depression and start to get a social life. And a self esteem. Especially a self esteem.

I think who the wife of Demetrios must have a personallity. I think who Demetrios X Aballa is a good couple. I´m interesed in his effort to change their societies.

edited 5th Oct '15 4:53:02 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country

Demetrios' wife (who I have not settled on a name for as of yet) is definitely meant to have a personality. Concept I'm working with so far is a very shy, desperately unhappy girl whose dearest ambition in life was to be a good wife and mother. Now she's stuck with Demetrios, who is far older than her, isn't a lot of fun to be around, and who of course, has no intention of ever consummating their marriage, meaning she can expect to die childless. Her reaction to this is to assume that she personally (rather than the age gap and forced nature of the marriage) is the problem, and she keeps trying to win him over, in the process making Deemtrios even more uncomfortable and even less willing to spend any time around her.

The Caroline/Misao friendship sounds interesting. I'm glad that Caroline turns out to be flawed, but not actually a terrible person.

@Novis

Forgot to say this in my first reply to you, but you know how you were saying your views would be conflicted? It's okay to post said conflicted views. Assuming you mean what I think you mean by that, it just indicates you like some parts of the concept and are unsure about others. Regardless, it would be useful information for me to have.

edited 4th Oct '15 8:43:49 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Poor Wife of Demetrios, someone must give her a hug. And a good husband too. Demetrios is good man in a world filled with assholes.

For Misao and Caroline: Yes, avoid the "You best friend ended being: A Druggie, a Ax-Crazy Serial Killer, she hate you all-along and was only try to manipulate yoy" trope was my intention with Caroline. Actually are characters who try to lie Misao to she believe who Caroline was far worse than actually was. Are minor character who nobody cares but still.

The setting is like i say before is a: Fantasy Kitchen Sink: A squad of Magical Girls, many Psychic Powers users who learn using magic of the Anthropomorphic Personification of and eventually The Messiah and a Hope Crusher (a example of a totally heroic Hope Crusher -destroying the hopes of the ones who hurt other-) are the main cast.

Misao and Caroline plot is a important point in the first arcs. So Misao eventually get over her grief.

Good luck fighting against a God of Evil Made of Evil and see how you Bully become a Physical God. Good luck Misao.

edited 5th Oct '15 5:17:00 PM by KazuyaProta

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The main reason Demetrios hasn't initiated divorce proceedings against her is because he knows that bad as things are for her now, they'd get worse if he broke up with her. She'd be seen as damaged goods, and the rest of her life would be more miserable still.

More hugs for her. More hugs for her.... Seriously, the past sucks. Compared with The past now many things feels like First-World Problems.

Any idea for Misao? I wanna be the most comprensible posible with the people with emocional dependancy. I used some ideas for the experiences of my friends and mine.

edited 6th Oct '15 9:26:13 PM by KazuyaProta

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Now is time for write a Villain/Hero relationship. How two people who was friends before start to hate each other. Well, this is my not so humild (I am a asshole) attemp:

Names: Brandon Harlaw and Makoto Takayama.

Ages: 15/16 for Bran, 17/18 for Makoto.

Bran is The Hero and Makoto is Manchildren Psychotic Big Bad. In the end, the way of how both end in that posicion is...a long story (actually is at least 1/3 of the plot).

Makoto was a citizen for Shin Tokio. The only city who remain with knowledge of his past before the End of the World as We Know It. (Mostly of the cities conserve the tech but no the culture, the religions yes but many traditions was lost).

Bachilea, Brave City and Shin-Tokio are the only cities with culture lefting, but Shin-Tokio has more (even conservate a name of a real city!).

Makoto was one of the discovers of The Black Castle, and he learn who actually was a nexum between "This Side" and other world in where the mankind is in verge to extintion and only the strong and lucky survive to meet other crappy day. Makoto with his friends stop the posibility of who the "Dark Beasts" uses the Black Castle to invade the world. He was a hero facing the adversity in that epoch, the problem? He fall. Fall Hard. The Dark Beast escapes to the real world and destroy several parts of the city. Makoto side with Pardon, god of forgiveness, by find a way to stop the invation, he still fail and the only way to stop a full-beast invation is...delete the city. Not destroy the city, delete it. Erase the city of story and all his natal population. Pardon promise "return the city to the reality" in some future and Makoto is forced to agree. But The God of Evil just fuck Makoto and send him into the new world. A world in where Shin Tokio never exist, just a attemp to create it who fail. With new people and new history. Makoto is the only people who remember Tokyo.

Makoto try to accept his new life but he found who he cannot found any of his friends. Only a girl who he dated in the last year who don't even remember him. He is alone, he was a orphan in the old timeline and he still be a orphan in the new.

And he learn a Awful Truth. The Black Castle is back in the new world, and The Other side still be a Crapsack World like ever. The good news? He has a friend who remember him in the Other Side.

He go the Black Castle and with a mix of experience and Genre Savvy-ness he become The Ace of the explorators (He was The Ace in Tokio too. He just take it Up To Eleven).

He eventually meet Misao and Bran, he become friends with Bran and eventually both start to become Best Friend of Each Other. But Makoto never forget his past friends..

Makoto eventually find a way to return Tokio to the reality and he goes for it. Eventually end in a conflict with Pardon who tried to convice Makoto to stop his plan. Makoto gives up but..he learn who the only motive of Pardon of delete the city is because his mission is The Status Quo Is God (in the world, literally. God support the status quo). Pardon can stop the beasts but he don't do it because God don't let himm Makoto also discover who Pardon has plans to create a "Savior" to his plan to make who the People love God and try to use Makoto like a "martyr". Pardon say who he lamment all of this and who he is just making his duty but that don't calm Makoto who with Shelley, a Mysterious Waif who "help him in all who she can" eventually try to get the center of the Black Castle to use "the Throne" as a way to get Tokio back. And then the Reborn of Evil does...the God of Evil manipulate not only Makoto, but nearly all the characters to get himself in the world. He comes with a explotion who kill dozens of people and destroy many houses. Traumatizing both Makoto and Brandon.

Makoto pulled a Face–Heel Turn and try to kill Pardon "because if you worried for the people you tried to avoid all of this" -And..he is right, Pardon don't tried to stop him, not is Pardon fault actually because are many being who those jobs in fight agaist the God of Evil. But Makoto was in a very bad mood. He eventually try to use the throne of the black castle and become into a Egg (A Egg is a human who can use his soul like his power, he can copies every power and improve it, his skills get better if he get the "essence" of other Egg). He kill some Eggs (while he justifies himself saying who he "get the way to revive them" and/or "they deserve die"and he eventually get into a fight with other explorer of the Black Castle and one of Misao and Bran friend's: Jhonatan. Eventually the battle get into a point in where the trio of Bran, Misao and Jhon send Makoto (now a High-rank egg) into "the rift" with Shelley. Makoto develop a grudge with Bran who eventually get bigger with the time.

Makoto finally end living in Tokio, very damaged and selled of the rest of existence, Makoto manipulate the entire city to follow him and open a portal to the True World. Makoto arc is getting every time worse, and worse...and worse.

edited 22nd Oct '15 5:38:37 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country

For more info: Makoto give the entire Tokio in the nexus, turning them into "demons" (actually very mutated and damaged -both psychological and physical- people) and eventually he develelop a grudge against God and Pardon who get far, so far who he attemp genocide against all the religious people while he exclaim: I am a hero, i am the liberator!. He want believe who he is heroic, but in the end he is just a crazy wacko who don't care for anyone than himself (his dear friends?. Oh, he constantly uses his Psychic Powers to braiwashing them and damge their perception of reality and sanity to make who they supporting him with all his "I'ma hero" bullshit). Makoto is comprensible and understable. But nothing sympathetic, he is -in the last Story Arc- a murderer, rapist (he basically brainwashing his former girlfriend to have sex with him, several times), a genocide (You believe in God, in GOD. The true enemy of mankind!. DIE! (Who is bullshit, God Is Flawed: YES, but he want the best for mankind and he tried, is just who his serves fail and things like The Creation of the Black Castle happens).

Makoto in the end is the biggest Angry Angsty Idiot ever. Only worried by himself with lots and lots of hate. Bran and Misao specially. Specially Bran, "a cool guy who become into other of God's tool, what a waste")

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Now, is time for Bran backstory and his side of the friendship.

Bran has No Social Skills, he has the same live in the two lines of time. He is pretty normal (see: Boring) and he has a job like a writter for his university. (Bachilea education is weird).

He found the Black Castle and he is the one who want know more, and more of it.

For the sake of avoid spoilers. He become into one of Makoto Only Friend s (the other is Misao).

After the Hisao Copu d´ state Arc. Bran discover who the Black Castle is is sign of the apocalypse and he join to Misao to stop it. He end found Makoto and discover the truth of him. Bran get shocked and try to stop Makoto with a friendly talk. Bran end be one of the last people who trust in Makoto (is a sort of Foil to Misao and Caroline, Bran still trust in Makoto but he know who Makoto is a very damaged man). Eventually when Makoto breaks and end into a ragging Rage Against The Heaven Bran get shocked and try to stop him even with violence.

Makoto take it like who Bran is "betraying" him and try to beat Bran to the death (Makoto was in the worse moment of his Trauma Conga Line in that chapter) and eventually Makoto end fatally injuring Jonathan. Bran and a moribunde Jonathan get the power to send Makoto to The Rift and Bran promise Jonathan who he try to doing his best to archive his dream. Create a better world for all.

Makoto end in Tokio, and like i said before he Took a Level in Jerkass (actually LOTS of levels) and he become a selfish and narcissistic man who want believe who he is The Hero.

Bran opinion of Makoto was complicated. He believe initially who he can be saved but when Makoto return Tokio and become Tokio into the Mouth of Hell (complicated).Bran just lost his hope in him and take him like a Bad Guy with few doubts.

Makoto just get worse and worse and Bran end hating him with even more strength. Bran in the end think who Makoto is a monster who must be erased of the world (And Makoto..is, he is the worst human being in the story).

So...i wanna create a believable hate between two. Specially for Bran side.

edited 17th Oct '15 1:03:27 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country

@Ambar Son of Deshar, Novis & Sophia Lonesoul: I would like to thank you all for giving me input for Constance and Malachi. In particular, Sophia Lonesoul made a point that helped me get over some squicky feelings I’ve had about romances between mortals and beings that are centuries old. Namely, if nobody sees anything wrong with it in the actual setting, and the two characters are consenting adults capable of making rational decisions, why should it be gross? So stories where humans and elves get together in fantasy settings? I’m now much cooler with. Stories of high schoolers hooking up with vampires? Not so much. Yeah Twilight jokes will never get old for me, even though I realize that that horse has been beaten so hard into the ground, there’s nothing left but a crater and a smear of glue. Anyway, that being said, given that in the setting I’m trying to make there’s a strong taboo against relationships between humans and demons, and given Constance’s character in general, I think the story would benefit most from Malachi having an unrequited love for Constance who will come to see him as probably the greatest friend she’s ever had, but not a romantic partner.

@Kazuya Prota: So I apologize if I misunderstood this, but essentially Makoto’s city had to be erased from existence to stop an apocalyptic force of evil that turns out to still be around? He used to be a hero and now he’s fallen into a deranged, whiny tool with a god complex… I’m getting kind of a Superboy Prime vibe from Makoto. I suppose if you want to build a believable hate between Bran and Makoto, that’s no problem. I’d say Bran has every reason to hate Makoto with that rap sheet under his belt. However, it’s much harder for me to buy why the hell Bran would ever be friends with Makoto. I know what Makoto’s like after he falls, but what good does he do before? Why would he and Bran like each other? Why would they associate? If the friendship is stronger, then the betrayal will feel more personal on both sides.

I did have another question for the thread about another romantic relationship I’m trying to develop between two characters that I’m not sure how to approach or if it raises too many red flags. The background of the story is that once upon a time, in a fairly standard fantasy setting, a group of heroes banded together to thwart a shadowy cabal of sorcerers from causing the apocalypse. And they failed. Like, really badly. The forces of hell have overrun earth, the sorcerers have each carved out a piece of the world for themselves to rule over while their masters feed off of the suffering of mortals, and the rest of the world become a wasteland that’s fallen into anarchy. Into this mess are the two characters I’d like to get some advice on: Jonah and Amara. Both of them are members of a mercenary company that have been hired to help protect a small alliance of mortal settlements that are trying to bring stability to their little patch of the world.

Jonah is a hulking swordsman who’s used by his seemingly affable boss as the bad cop, to the leader’s good cop. Though his reputation is that of a bloodthirsty psychopath, Jonah is actually a rather quiet and brooding young man who tries to rationalize the ruthless actions he performs under orders as necessary evils to help his family and friends survive in this new Crapsack World. He also suffers a massive case of family shame, as he’s a bastard descendant of one of the heroes who tried and failed to prevent the end of the world.

Amara, unlike Jonah, is not a human. At the moment the apocalypse began, a wave of magic spread through the world, effecting certain pregnant women who gave birth to mutated creatures resembling demons. These beings are called hellspawn, and Amara is one of them. Just to give an idea of her race’s appearance, Amara herself has a mix of red and black, her teeth are fangs that protrude slightly out of her mouth, and her hair is white which she grows long to conceal the left side of her face, which is misshapen and has a bulging eye that resembles a goat’s. Hellspawn are, as you can imagine, reviled by most mortals, some of which have no problem killing them on sight, believing their race to be inherently evil. This is not helped by the fact that the arch-devils that rule hell, which are more akin to unknowable Eldritch Abominations, “whisper” to all hellspawn. Their unintelligible voices can be heard in hellspawns heads, in the back of their minds and while their dreaming, with their “masters” words growing louder and more frequent over time. The condition resembles schizophrenia in some respects, and can become debilitating as a hellspawn grows older. Some completely lose their minds to the arch-devils whispers, becoming mindless servants of their masters. However, despite the negative reputation of her race, Amara is a Shrinking Violet who’s the most compassionate and selfless member of their group. She was taught to be a healer, and works as their company’s medic.

When the story first starts off, Jonah and Amara haven’t had much interaction. They’re mostly acquaintances but Jonah is one of the few people to treat Amara with genuine kindness which has led to Amara developing feelings for him, because of all the Fantastic Racism she’s faced in life. I would like Jonah to eventually reciprocate and the two of them to end up involved together. However, I realize that there are some possible problems with this. At first, Amara and Jonah don’t know each other very well at first, so Amara’s feelings for Jonah would originally be Loving a Shadow, projecting the idea of someone who will look past her appearance and love her for who she is. Yes the irony of wanting that but not loving Jonah for who he is at first, is lost on her, since she completely overlooks or rationalizes Jonah’s more unsavory aspects. The second problem I have is that Amara’s condition, which is slowly driving her insane and turning her into a pawn of the arch-devils. I would like the relationship between Jonah and Amara to resemble a relationship with mental disorder, but I don’t have much expertise in that area, and I don’t want to come across as insulting.

I’d like some input from the forum if this relationship is a good idea? Should I have Amara end up with someone else after realizing she’s putting Jonah on a pedestal, or have her love Jonah after they both go through Character Development? What do you guys think about her condition? Is it a good idea or does having it make the relationship unnecessarily difficult when they have obstacles enough already?

You don´t put her with other person unless said other person has Character Development and has certain importance to the plot.

I gonna say who she and Jonah must be together but i don´t know. About her condition, you gonna make it a part of the relationship (because must be a part), you must put their struggles to the disease. Poor Amara, poor girl.

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About Bran and Makoto: When they meet Makoto is a ok guy, he show a bit of issues and a good bunch of Jerkass behaviors but he still be a Good guy, Bran don´t know about his backstory and only took him like a friend. Both actually share lots of interests and certain personallity traits. They become friends easily. They associate because they need to do to job together in The Gate in the Black Castle but they become friends eventually.

About the Prime comparation...

Actually when i know of Prime i go to ask to Tropers/Ambarsonofdeshar for a bit of info of him. Because both are too similar and i just get shocked for the Uncanny Resemblance.

edited 9th Nov '15 2:32:17 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country

I haven't forgotten about this thread. My write up for the main relationship of my work is chugging along, but it's going to be long.

You say I am loved, when I don’t feel a thing. You say I am strong, when I think I am weak. You say I am held, when I am falling short.

Oh boy, I actually have a relationship to post! God, I spent at least three days figuring it out.

Names: Cord Cai and Terry Daniel.

Who Are They?: By day, Cord Cai is a sweet, playful, bisexual Chinese-American in his mid/late twenties. He lives in Oakland, California, and works at a cafe in Alameda (right next to Oakland). He boxes, has a crapton of earrings, and little red heart tattoos are scattered all over his chest, arms, and neck. He also has a massive tribal tattoo of a broken heart, plus a semi-colon on his left wrist. He enjoys showing off his body for those two reasons, which people of both genders appreciate.

By night, Cord runs a vigilante street-gang called East 3, using the alias of "the Tin Man." As the Tin Man, Cord wears a concealing white greatcoat and about twenty pounds of jewelry (generally rings and necklaces). His most distinctive piece is a giant heart-pendant made of red sard. He gives it to people either as a symbol of protection, or to deliver a personal message from him without fear of injury/death. He styles his hair in a fusion of emo and punk (he has the trademark "bangs over one eye" from emo, with the rest of his hair in an extremely sculpted punk look). This is to make people too distracted to pin down his actual face, but he also enchants his jewelry with glamours, since he knew people would eventually get used to his appearance.

The Tin Man is a strange mix of boogeyman and protector for Oakland: Shooting a man in his house and tagging your alias right on his door is a pretty extreme way of making yourself known. Nobody knows why he shot Lamont, so rumors run wild. But since East 3 are Neighborhood-Friendly Gangsters who are better at keeping crime down than the legitimate police, the general consensus is that Lamont must have done something really fucking bad for the Tin Man to blatantly advertise his killing, since East 3 has never done this with the other criminals they've killed, beaten up as an example, or driven out of town.

Lamont is the person who ruined Cord's life. Eighteen-year-old Cord and his twenty-year-old fiance Roland Fujii were driving to Roland's place one night, missed the last turn, and came across a stalled car with its hazards on. The driver was Lamont, who said he'd ran out of gas. Cord and Roland naturally offered to get some from the station, and everything was going fine until they got back to Lamont. He pulled a gun on them, told Roland to give him the keys, then shot him and drove off in the now-stolen car.

Cord didn't take this well. Not only did he lose his fiance in a random mugging, the police half-assed working on Roland's case since they were both LGBT Asian kids—the individual officers Cord worked with were sympathetic, but sympathy isn't very helpful for overburdened people working on a case that the higher-ups didn't bother to spend resources on. After two months of no real progress, Cord tried to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge and was dragged to a psych ward by (ironically) an off-duty police officer and his sister.

After a few weeks of being watched by the hospital and then his family, Cord went vigilante and shot Harry Lamont in revenge, while his friends tagged a broken-heart on Lamont's door underneath the name "TIN MAN."

Fast forward seven or eight years, when East 3 is the West Coast equivalent of a fledgling Mafia. It's grown to around 70 confirmed members (confirmed meaning "having a tattoo, or wearing the gang's broken-heart symbol in public") and at least a couple dozen unconfirmed (the ones who claim to be in East 3 or have friends/family in it, but have no way of confirming it). The only ones who aren't able to be identified are, ironically, the highest-ranking "named" members: The Tin Man himself, Dorothy, the Scarecrow, and Auntie Em. When the story begins, they recruit a young woman with psychometry and oracular abilities and call her the Witch.

Cord is a long way past wanting to kill himself thanks to his family and his new boyfriend Terry Daniel, though his current inner conflict is a mess of general depression, rage at the world, and semi-conscious self-hate.

By contrast, Terry Daniel is obscenely normal—a black gay nurse with nowhere near as much baggage as his eventual fiance. Which is probably why they've worked out so well, because two emotionally-damaged LGBT minorities have a good chance of self-destructing in a week.

He's also East 3's medic.

How did they meet?: Technically, they met up in the psych ward that Cord was taken to after trying to jump off the Golden Gate. But that was about two or three hours of Terry's shift and it ended pretty badly when Cord started mock-flirting with him in an attempt to distract himself from his interrupted suicide. Their real first meeting was a year and a half later at Laney College. It took Terry a few weeks to recognize Cord because his hair was longer, he had a shitton of piercings and tattoos, and he wasn't a suicidal wreck.

Of course, since Terry didn't change nearly as much as Cord, he constantly wonders whether Cord recognized him or even remembers him. Cord never manages to give a straight answer.

What is the status of their relationship when the story begins?: Very happy and stable, aside from them both being in a gang and Cord's issues. They're also in an open relationship, mostly on Cord's side.

They get engaged at the end of the first act (this might change since my writing is pretty loosely organized), which brings up a lot of conflict for Cord since his last fiance died a week after the proposal. It doesn't help that Terry, in an attempt to connect with Cord's Chinese heritage, unwittingly proposes in the exact same way that Roland did—by tying them together with a red string.

To people who don't know them well, Terry seems to be the Love Martyr to Cord's mountain of issues, or maybe the optimist to Cord's extreme pessimist, but Cord is just as caring and devoted as Terry—he just happens to hate himself for being a bisexual Asian. The story is essentially the journey from his years-long Heroic BSoD into acknowledging that he's a hero.

Terry finds Cord fascinating because he doesn't know how a person who hates himself so much can still form such strong and healthy relationships with his friends and family. Also, the chemical effects of depression and PTSD usually do the opposite of motivating someone to do what Cord's doing, if only by plaguing them with too much apathy or trauma to do much in the first place.

The ultimate reason Terry's stayed for four years is that without the fear and anger messing up Cord's worldview, he clearly loves the world and he wants it to suck less for other people than it does for him. And Terry, unlike a lot of people, isn't afraid of either dying or losing his loved ones. Obviously he wouldn't be happy about it, but it's a lot easier for him to accept death since he's a nurse and it's his job.

Problems?: Terry gets overwhelmed by the sheer scale of Cord's self-hate and anger. It upsets him whenever Cord has an episode of being miserable just from existing, especially since their different ethnicities are a related stumbling block: Terry was brought up to be proud of being black and is very open to different cultures, but Cord's spent most of his life trying to be Not Asian At All thanks to bullying and his horrible experience with the police—he can't change his skin color, but he can squish all cultural signs of being Asian away from public view.

Once Terry proposes, Cord almost instantly starts stressing out that Terry's going to die. And not just because of how Roland died a week after proposing—since Terry's black and the racial tensions in America are coming to a head, Cord sees a very small step from "the police don't give a shit about your dead fiance" to "the police are the ones who killed your fiance."

Cord doesn't get why Terry's not afraid to be involved with a vigilante, and he doesn't get why Terry became the gang's medic instead of running the hell away. While he's grateful that Terry at least tries to understand his issues, Cord also wishes that he'd give up and find someone who isn't running weed and going after criminals that the police explicitly can't (or won't) deal with.

What do they want?: Terry wants Cord. Endgame. He doesn't care if one or both of them dies, because as long as Cord stays with him, he's fine.

Cord wants Terry to be safe because in his head, safe equals happy. He wants to make Oakland safer, but he hates resorting to vigilantism to do it. He especially hates that he lost his fiance and nearly killed himself to become a vigilante while plenty of people became heroes without going through that pain.

Over the story, Terry gets increasingly sure that Cord is wrong about being some nameless gangster who's doomed to die in a shootout, and the gang's new "Witch" eventually realizes that Cord's life is straight out of a comic book. The big trouble is getting Cord himself to believe it, because he's spent so long bitterly raging at the world that he doesn't realize channeling his grief into helping people is exactly what heroes do.

Resolution?: By the end of the story Cord's finally processed a lot of his issues, reconnected to the Chinese side of being Chinese-American, and in his ending monologue he calls himself a superhero and he does the Superman shirt-rip.

Other things to consider?: This is a relationship-specific thread, but a HUGE theme of the story is that The Power of Love is a collective force. It's not just Terry helping Cord process his issues—Cord's aunt and uncle love him to pieces, since they raised him along with their own kids after discovering how his parents destroyed his possessions to teach him how to behave and eventually killed his cat. Then he gains two sister-figures who are Indian-American and Filipino-American, and they know how to navigate the specifics of Asian-American discrimination in a way that Terry doesn't. And then the gang itself is basically "Cord and his True Companions plus a fuckton of people who support his efforts to help the city and don't mind the questionable legality of it."

Terry is the linchpin of Cord's support system, but it would still take longer for Cord to process things without everyone else he cares about. Similarly, everyone else would have taken longer to break Cord out of his Heroic BSoD without Terry constantly there to remind Cord that he's not afraid of dying or losing Cord.

edited 21st Nov '15 1:49:19 AM by Sharysa

And BOY, does it show. That’s a lot of text you’ve got there — so let’s see if I can unpack it a little.

For starters, I have to give props to you for coming up with a concept and details like this. Assuming that your execution is up to snuff, there’s no doubt you’ll be able to capitalize on the potential. A gang leader out to clean up the streets? With psychics and such along the way? Sounds pretty cool.

Now then. Let me say this to start: I pulled your post from TV Tropes into a Word Document to try and parse through the info more easily. As it so happened, you typed nearly 2,000 words to explain your characters and their relationship. That’s praiseworthy, for sure, but — if you don’t mind me making an assumption — you may have exposed a fatal flaw.

Obviously, I’m not you, and I don’t know every last detail of your story. But based on what I’ve read here, I have concerns, and here’s why: out of the 2,000-ish words you typed out, I’d wager that a good 80-90% of it is tied to Cord. (I started color-coding it to check, but I didn’t need to go far to spot the imbalance.) It’s hard to get the full picture of Terry; there are details, sure, but just have a look for yourself. Cord gets two full paragraphs JUST to describe his appearance — and an esoteric one, at that — while the greatest visual data I have on Terry is that he’s black. And/or he wears scrubs, maybe. See what I mean?

That’s pretty much just me nitpicking, for sure, but it feeds into THE big issue for me. It feels like Terry runs the risk of having his life, role, and even character absorbed into Cord, to the point where he might as well not even exist. Okay, sure, you’ve probably left off some details here — and beyond that, I’m guessing that Cord’s the main character, so it’s only natural that he gets more focus. That’s fine. But it feels like Terry’s individuality is being sacrificed here.

Pared down to basics, Terry’s character is that he’s there to support Cord, and help Cord, and be there for Cord; you even said yourself that “Terry wants Cord”. Fine and dandy, but surely he wants something besides that, right? He has more desires and ambitions, doesn’t he? Maybe he wants to advance in his career? Bail out of Oakland? Unravel the secrets and mysteries behind Cord’s enemies if the so-called Tin Man is willing to kill? Draw ever closer to saying “enough is enough” and that they SHOULD give up vigilantism so the law can handle it, least of all because their exploits are hurting the people around them?

I think it’s interesting that Terry can’t “figure out” Cord, and that it sounds like he’s approaching the Tin Man as he would a science experiment. But that can go extremely well or extremely poorly. I can believe that they’re in a relationship, but the expectation is that in the story proper, you’d show how much they care about each other. If Terry’s only in it to probe Cord out of sheer fascination — and/or end up infatuated as a result of his partner’s sheer enigmatic awesomeness — then their bond won’t feel genuine. It all depends on how much Terry avoids being a mere hanger-on. What does he see in Cord besides a wounded animal? What do they agree on? What do they disagree on? They’re both trying to protect each other, no question, but how? And more importantly, are they doing it to genuinely help their partner? Or are they simply projecting for a sense of self-satisfaction?

There are a lot of questions that need to be answered here, and I’d wager you can come up with them over time…or immediately after this post, because (again) this is your story. I just thought I’d bring all that stuff up, because the problems I’ve outlined are ones I’ve run into. Having a relationship can bring out the full potential of your characters, as long as you’re willing to make use of the tools your concept and conventions allow. Ask yourself questions, answer them, and use them to your story’s advantage. It’s that simple.

Well, maybe. On a theoretical level, for sure.

In any case, good luck to you. And I'll get my relationship thing tossed in this thread eventually...and you can exact your revenge on me. Either that, or watch and smile contentedly as others point at my post and laugh me into oblivion.

edited 23rd Nov '15 11:09:27 PM by Voltech44

My Wattpad — A haven for delightful degeneracy

Why is it so important that a relationship has more than one person who's fleshed out? Can't a story work out and be interesting even when there's only one developed protagonist and everyone else being one-dimensional, as long as together they create an intriguing plot?

Holy shit, thank you for the good points! And thanks for pointing out that Terry's verging on a Satellite Love Interest.

I probably worded his Measuring the Marigolds motivation wrong: It's not that he's treating Cord like a science experiment or Patient #138—it's more that he's not used to dealing with issues out in real life instead of the controlled and safe hospital settings. Especially not with his own feelings complicating the mix.

In general, Terry's already gotten his goals outside of Cord. He's already gotten a good job as a nurse, and he's not particularly keen on moving too far up the ladder because the medical field is already heaped with long hours and lots of stress.

He also represents being normal, which Cord reallyreallyreally wants and what he feels like he lost his chance at after his old fiancé died.

Physical attractiveness aside, Terry sees that Cord is so much better than what he calls himself. In their flashbacks, Cord literally calls himself racial AND homophobic slurs, and Terry is always reminding him that he's not just a chew-toy for the universe to kick around.

He sees a person who's made really fucked up choices because he had to do something to avoid going crazy, so he's always telling Cord that making bad choices doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, and allegedly-bad choices aren’t always bad if you look at them from another angle. Cord sees a vengeful, broken gangster; Terry sees a person who's stuck in one mode of thinking and needs someone to tell him another way.

They agree that this relationship is a good thing and they love each other. Cord's trying to physically and socially protect Terry from street-law AND normal law, so he basically tells Terry as The Medic to Stay in the Kitchen a lot. And before the story, when they’ve already been together for a few years, he’s been fine with that.

Terry is trying to protect Cord by 1) operating within the system as a nurse and a generally law-abiding person, then 2) marrying him. It's not just for emotional reasons—he specifically mentions that since medicine is dominated by straight white people, especially straight white OLDER people, a lot of them treat patients of color and LGBT patients differently than they would straight white patients. If they're married as opposed to domestic-partners, prejudiced doctors would legally have to listen to one of them regarding the other one's health-care.

They're definitely doing it because they love each other, but reading your point that Terry might get swallowed by Cord's life is timely because I've been tracking Terry's development over the scattered bits I’ve been writing of the script.

So: At first, all Terry wants is Cord. And by extension, he wants Cord to be happy and he gives Cord a safe space to let out his emotions. So for the first half/third of the play, they're happy, stable, and "boring" (considering the circumstances).

But once Terry proposes, that's when shit starts going down.

A few days after the proposal and their gonna-get-married high wears off, Cord starts stressing out because for him, "proposal = death" because Roland died. And thanks to Terry unintentionally proposing in the same way that Roland did, he's especially worried that history is going to repeat itself. He starts counting the fucking days that Terry's still alive, waits up whenever Terry has a late shift, tries to keep tabs on Terry without being too controlling, that sort of thing.

And then Cord gets hit by lightning from a weather-mage, stays in the hospital for almost a month, and ends up with medical staff who aren't used to dealing with Asian patients that aren't quiet, stoic, and easy to handle. He spends a week getting increasingly lonely and bored out of his mind, so Terry pulls some strings to get an open-minded nurse onto Cord's team. Which Cord appreciates a LOT, and Terry reminds him that this is exactly what he was worried about, and partly why he wants to get married.

A few days after he gets home, Cord has a PTSD episode and tries to back out of the engagement because he thinks this is yet another sign that the universe hates him being happy, which completely throws Terry off of his Emotional Crutch game.

Usually when Cord is upset, Terry lets PTSD-Cord say whatever comes out, stays calm, and then talks about it rationally after a few days. But this time, Terry can't put his feelings on hold because Cord is telling him to take back what HE said and forget how HE feels about their relationship. If Cord had just said no to the proposal, Terry could just ask again later, but it's WAY different when Cord says yes and then tries to undo it.

At first Terry tries to keep calm and he knows that this is only happening because Cord is having a PTSD episode from how physically and emotionally vulnerable he is. But then Terry starts losing his shit because he can't just take back wanting to marry someone. He can't even pretend to call it off so Cord can calm down, because he'd still have to say "no, I don't want to marry you anymore" or "I take back the proposal."

So Terry tells Cord that he isn't leaving, he won't let Cord leave him, and he won't call off the engagement. Because Cord is fucking IT for him.

Cord gets overloaded with PTSD and bolts out of the house. Terry finally has to do something on his own, even if it’s something obvious like “call everyone I know, call the gang, and call the police to look for my PTSD-suffering fiance.”

And at first this started as a not-quite-joking Mad Max: Fury Road reference, but Terry's constantly telling Cord that "You're not a thing." Other people are also telling each other that "we/you are not things," because the play is very race-oriented and they deal with lots of stereotypes.

Which ties in perfectly with how Terry's a Living Emotional Crutch, because it takes him a while to realize that relegating himself to that role is treating himself as a thing, even if it's done out of love.

So yeah, after a few hours of helping everyone look for Cord and being simultaneously relieved/furious when he finally shows up safe at the police station, that's when Terry realizes he can't just be a Living Emotional Crutch to Cord anymore. It was okay in the beginning, but now it's just stifling both of them, and trying to keep their relationship at that level isn't fair to either of them.

So he graduates from The Medic to Combat Medic and gets on a much more equal footing with Cord.

edited 25th Nov '15 8:52:31 PM by Sharysa

Sure, it's still plenty possible to have a good plot (and story in general) when one character gets developed and one stays flat. There's no hard rule to this whole writing thing, especially when the end goal is "make a good story". Honestly, going too far with Terry (as an example) could mean that the plot gets derailed, because everything has to slow down for feelings and normal life. In a story that revolves around gang warfare and psychic powers, that could be a problem.

So what's the big deal? Well, I like to think of it this way: some people are going to want to see Cord in action from start to finish. But there are others who might want something different — someone like Terry. Sharysa's post (IMHO) skews heavily towards Cord, and that can create an imbalance in the story. More specifically, if someone latches on to Terry for whatever reason (as a hypothetical example, I could latch on because we're both black), then that same someone would be left wanting because there's not nearly as much to digest. They want to see more of Terry, but end up frustrated by — and even resentful of — the story because it's The Cord Show Starring Cord With Guest Appearances By Cord. If Terry is really in a relationship with such an important character, then the expectation (if not hope) of the theoretical audience is that there'll be enough material to justify that relationship and make it feel genuine.

It's not a guaranteed failure state if Terry stays one-dimensional (which he might not be; I'm not writing the story, after all). But look at it this way: given the choice between fleshing out a character and giving yourself a whole new set of tools to play with, and not fleshing out a character and forgoing some golden opportunities for a bit of focus...well, choosing the former isn't that bad, is it?

That's just my take on it, though. Not even close to an ironclad rule, because different stories have different needs. So feel free to disagree with me. Now then...

I had a feeling that you had more to say about Terry — and you didn't disappoint. Sounds like Terry's got the potential for a good arc; I may have come down on your for making it sound like Terry needed to be more than just a Cord groupie, but in all fairness I don't mind that he cares so intensely about this person. I'm all for it, as long as it's done well. If there are shake-ups along the way like what you've described here, then that's a good way to keep things interesting. Also, it looks like the disparity in their powers/skill sets can cause some serious divides between them, so that's another cool thing you could play with.

So yeah, just keep playing with the tools you've set up for yourself, and you should be all right. There are no limits. There are no absolutes. Wise words indeed...which would probably be a little wiser if not for the source I pulled them from.

My Wattpad — A haven for delightful degeneracy

No problem! My first post was probably 90% Cord because he's a superhero throwback plus a REALLY big deconstruction of racism in comic books (and society).

I'm surprised at how many people think this concept sounds awesome, but for me it was really easy to come up with. "Hey, we need an Asian-American superhero who doesn't know kung fu. Let's have a Chinese-American gangster THINK he's a villain but act like a superhero!"

And then everything snowballed into that thing up there.

Was a good series, don't be asshamed.

---

I totally understand you. I probably ended copying you style.

Nah, every couple made of emotially damaged people can be self-destructing. But not in fiction-land. If you are a emotially damaged people you gonna find the love, is hard but is a secure idea. Wait for lots of drama but you has most chances of be happy than the bored normal people witoth dark pasts.

Weird and good concept for a antihero. Ok for me...

Watch me destroying my country